yāni

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Ceisiwr
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yāni

Post by Ceisiwr »

What is the best translation for yāni?
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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sphairos
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Re: yāni

Post by sphairos »

depends on the context.

yāni... tāni... = those... which...

yāni = whatever/whichever [there are/are there]

and so on
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Ceisiwr
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Re: yāni

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:13 pm depends on the context.

yāni... tāni... = those... which...

yāni = whatever/whichever [there are/are there]

and so on
Thanks.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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waryoffolly
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Re: yāni

Post by waryoffolly »

sphairos wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:13 pm depends on the context.

yāni... tāni... = those... which...

yāni = whatever/whichever [there are/are there]

and so on
Hi sphairos,

In the line of pali below is it possible for yani itself to be the subject? (excuse my lack of diacritics, not sure how to add them)

“Nete kama yani citrani loke”

So yani would have to mean something like “whichever things” or “those” in order to be a subject (Which would give the rough translation: “Those beautiful things in the world are not kama”.) Can yani act as a subject or is it always a modifier? Both Ajahn Sujato and Bhikkhu Bodhi seem to translate it this way, hence my question.

Another way of translating (I’m assuming) this is to have yani modifying kaamaa. Then we’d have roughly “Not kaamaa which are beautiful in the world”.
sphairos
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Re: yāni

Post by sphairos »

waryoffolly wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:17 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:13 pm depends on the context.

yāni... tāni... = those... which...

yāni = whatever/whichever [there are/are there]

and so on
Hi sphairos,

In the line of pali below is it possible for yani itself to be the subject? (excuse my lack of diacritics, not sure how to add them)

“Nete kama yani citrani loke”

So yani would have to mean something like “whichever things” or “those” in order to be a subject (Which would give the rough translation: “Those beautiful things in the world are not kama”.) Can yani act as a subject or is it always a modifier? Both Ajahn Sujato and Bhikkhu Bodhi seem to translate it this way, hence my question.
Hi waryoffolly !

Yāni is plural neutrum accusative and nominative of the relative pronoun ya/yo (that/which). Usually ya is in the same gender, number and case as the main word it relates to. It can be sometimes the subject on its own, when the context allows.

In the sentence "Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke" yāni citrāni is "the ones which are beautiful", "na te kāmā" "they are not lusts", "loke" "in the world"

(but the passion towards the intention/resolve is a man's lust)

‘‘Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke,

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo;"

(Sagāthāvaggo. 1. Devatāsaṃyuttaṃ. 4. Nasantisuttaṃ)

It could have been said easier: "Na te kāmā ye citrā loke", but "yāni citrāni" is, perhaps, because of the metre (it's a verse). (basically, it is like it is because the poet wants it that way)
Another way of translating (I’m assuming) this is to have yani modifying kaamaa. Then we’d have roughly “Not kaamaa which are beautiful in the world”.
See above, kāmā and citrāni are already in agreement.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
waryoffolly
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Re: yāni

Post by waryoffolly »

sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:37 pm
Yāni is plural neutrum accusative and nominative of the relative pronoun ya/yo (that/which). Usually ya is in the same gender, number and case as the main word it relates to. It can be sometimes the subject on its own, when the context allows.

In the sentence "Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke" yāni citrāni is "the ones which are beautiful", "na te kāmā" "are not lusts", "loke" "in the world"

(but the passion towards the intention/resolve is a man's lust)

‘‘Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke,

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo;"

(Sagāthāvaggo. 1. Devatāsaṃyuttaṃ. 4. Nasantisuttaṃ)

It could have been said easier: "Na te kāmā ye citrā loke", but "yāni citrāni" is, perhaps, because of the metre (it's a verse). (basically, it is like it is because the poet wants it that way)
Thanks! This is very helpful.

So your translation of the first line is roughly “The ones which are beautiful are not lusts in the world”? Does this mean that yani is taken as nominative and citrani is an adjective for yani?

Also are you taking yani as the subject of the sentence in your translation?
See above, kāmā and citrāni are already in agreement.
Your statement here is a bit confusing to me, because it seems like in your above version citrani is an adjective for yani, but here it looks like it’s describing kama. Which nominative do you take citrani to be modifying (assuming you take yani as being in nominative)?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: yāni

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:37 pm
...
Interesting. I've reached a different conclusion. I'll just copy and paste what I have just wrote elsehwhere:

Yāni is the neutral plural of "ya", which can occur either in the nominative or accusative case:

Ya: which; what; whatever.

Ya is an aniyamita, or relative pronoun. As per Warder aniyamita pronouns work with niyamita, or demonstrative pronouns, in order to construct a sentence. The niyamita demonstrative pronoun in the sentence we are discussing is "te", which is the masculine plural of "ta" which too can appear in the nominative or accusative case:

Ta: that

Since both are plural we can translate yāni as "whatever". For te we can translate it as "those". If we take them in order, "te" is a demonstrative pronoun which points to a noun whilst "yāni" is a relative pronoun which introduces an adjective clause. Te then refers to the noun which is the subject of the sentence whilst yāni connects the noun to its adjective. In our case here we have the following

Na te [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] yāni [relative pronoun] citrāni [adjective] loke

Not those [demonstrative pronoun] kāmā [noun] whatever [relative pronoun] are pretty [adjective] in the world.

If we are to be completely precise the verse in question should then be read as:

Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world


From this we can clearly see that the kāmā are external pretty things. To conclude then, no, it doesn't seem that yāni can be the subject of the sentence.

Warder work referenced: https://ia800105.us.archive.org/26/item ... 20Pali.pdf
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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sphairos
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Re: yāni

Post by sphairos »

waryoffolly wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:02 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:37 pm
Yāni is plural neutrum accusative and nominative of the relative pronoun ya/yo (that/which). Usually ya is in the same gender, number and case as the main word it relates to. It can be sometimes the subject on its own, when the context allows.

In the sentence "Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke" yāni citrāni is "the ones which are beautiful", "na te kāmā" "are not lusts", "loke" "in the world"

(but the passion towards the intention/resolve is a man's lust)

‘‘Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke,

Saṅkapparāgo purisassa kāmo;"

(Sagāthāvaggo. 1. Devatāsaṃyuttaṃ. 4. Nasantisuttaṃ)

It could have been said easier: "Na te kāmā ye citrā loke", but "yāni citrāni" is, perhaps, because of the metre (it's a verse). (basically, it is like it is because the poet wants it that way)
Thanks! This is very helpful.

So your translation of the first line is roughly “The ones which are beautiful are not lusts in the world”? Does this mean that yani is taken as nominative and citrani is an adjective for yani?

Also are you taking yani as the subject of the sentence in your translation?
See above, kāmā and citrāni are already in agreement.
Your statement here is a bit confusing to me, because it seems like in your above version citrani is an adjective for yani, but here it looks like it’s describing kama. Which nominative do you take citrani to be modifying (assuming you take yani as being in nominative)?
Yes, "citrāni" is an adjective, "yāni" is relative pronoun, and "kāmā" is a proper subject, to which it all relates. (If you want to put it in such terms).

And it should have been "na te kāmā ye citrā loke", but the poet wants to play with "citrāni".
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How true are your ways?
sphairos
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Re: yāni

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:13 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:37 pm
...
Interesting. I've reached a different conclusion. I'll just copy and paste what I have just wrote elsehwhere:
I don't see the difference. (Only "external pretty things" I don't understand).
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How true are your ways?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: yāni

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:13 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:37 pm
...
Interesting. I've reached a different conclusion. I'll just copy and paste what I have just wrote elsehwhere:
I don't see the difference. (Only "external pretty things" I don't understand).
I'm slightly confused by your post then. Apologies. Would you then agree that the following is a grammatically correct and accurate translation of said sentence?

Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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sphairos
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Re: yāni

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:13 pm

Interesting. I've reached a different conclusion. I'll just copy and paste what I have just wrote elsehwhere:
I don't see the difference. (Only "external pretty things" I don't understand).
I'm slightly confused by your post then. Apologies. Would you then agree that the following is a grammatically correct and accurate translation of said sentence?

Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world
More or less.

I think my initial translation is more accurate:

They are not lusts, the ones/whatever ones which are beautiful in the world.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: yāni

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:36 pm

I don't see the difference. (Only "external pretty things" I don't understand).
I'm slightly confused by your post then. Apologies. Would you then agree that the following is a grammatically correct and accurate translation of said sentence?

Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world
More or less.

I think my initial translation is more accurate:

They are not lusts, the ones/whatever ones which are beautiful in the world.
Given the sentence places kāmā in the objective external world it would be strange to translate them as "lusts", especially since the previous line already identified "kāma" as lust. The whole verse reads to me as kāma being lust, not the external kāmā which are pretty. In other words, kāmā are objective objects of the senses. The CPD also take's this approach, as does the PTS I believe:
kāma, m. [ts., cf. BHSD, SWTF, Encyclop. of Buddhism VI, 1 1996 s.v.; Hôb. s.v. ai], 1. (mostly in sg.) wish, desire, pleasure; 2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba, cf. kāmaguṇa, q.v. on ~āni cf. Mittelindisch-2 § 315
https://cpd.uni-koeln.de/search?article_id=26454
Mendicants, a mendicant who has five things will soon penetrate the unshakable. What five? It’s when a mendicant has attained the analytical knowledge of meaning, the analytical knowledge of Dhamma, the analytical knowledge of language, the analytical knowledge of discernment and they review the extent of their mind’s freedom. A mendicant who has these five things will soon penetrate the unshakable.”

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sphairos
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Re: yāni

Post by sphairos »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:59 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:54 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 8:38 pm

I'm slightly confused by your post then. Apologies. Would you then agree that the following is a grammatically correct and accurate translation of said sentence?

Na te kāmā yāni citrāni loke
Not those kāmā whatever are pretty in the world
More or less.

I think my initial translation is more accurate:

They are not lusts, the ones/whatever ones which are beautiful in the world.
Given the sentence places kāmā in the objective external world it would be strange to translate them as "lusts", especially since the previous line already identified "kāma" as lust. The whole verse reads to me as kāma being lust, not the external kāmā which are pretty. In other words, kāmā are objective objects of the senses. The CPD also take's this approach, as does the PTS I believe:
kāma, m. [ts., cf. BHSD, SWTF, Encyclop. of Buddhism VI, 1 1996 s.v.; Hôb. s.v. ai], 1. (mostly in sg.) wish, desire, pleasure; 2. (in pl.) the objects of sensual pleasure viz. rūpa, sadda, gandha, rasa, phoṭṭhabba, cf. kāmaguṇa, q.v. on ~āni cf. Mittelindisch-2 § 315
https://cpd.uni-koeln.de/search?article_id=26454
But there is not an "objective external world", especially for early Buddhism/Buddhists 😉
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Re: yāni

Post by Inedible »

If no one else is going to go there, I will. This is Yanni.

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