Pali Terms: Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivhā, Kāya, Mano

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pali Terms: Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivhā, Kāya, Mano

Post by Ceisiwr »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:52 pm Thank you VERY MUCH for this thread.
I was thinking that DO makes absolutely no sense if salayatana is referring to organs and not sensitivity (ie, sight...), since nāmarūpa comes before and is basically eye, nose, body...
Close. Nāmarūpa doesn’t mean “eye, nose”‘etc. It’s means “designation & appearance” as per the Upanishads, where the Buddha got the concept from. See DN 15. Its in the Abhidhamma commentaries where nāmarūpa means “mind and matter”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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rhinoceroshorn
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Re: Pali Terms: Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivhā, Kāya, Mano

Post by rhinoceroshorn »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:55 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:52 pm Thank you VERY MUCH for this thread.
I was thinking that DO makes absolutely no sense if salayatana is referring to organs and not sensitivity (ie, sight...), since nāmarūpa comes before and is basically eye, nose, body...
Close. Nāmarūpa doesn’t mean “eye, nose”‘etc. It’s means “designation & appearance” as per the Upanishads, where the Buddha got the concept from. See DN 15. Its in the Abhidhamma commentaries where nāmarūpa means “mind and matter”.
What I mean is: if rūpa in nāmarūpa is the four great elements, it means that in DO, eye already exists in the level of nāmarūpa. What differentiates it from salāyatana is the sensitivity of the latter.

A festering corpse has rūpa, not āyatanas, to illustrate.
Eyes downcast, not footloose,
senses guarded, with protected mind,
not oozing — not burning — with lust,
wander alone
like a rhinoceros.
Sutta Nipāta 1.3 - Khaggavisana Sutta
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See, Ānanda! All those conditioned phenomena have passed, ceased, and perished. So impermanent are conditions, so unstable are conditions, so unreliable are conditions. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.
Dīgha Nikāya 17
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Assaji
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Re: Pali Terms: Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivhā, Kāya, Mano

Post by Assaji »

A quote from the Visuddhimagga:
I, 53. (b) Now, as regards the virtue of restraint of faculties shown next to that in the way beginning, “on seeing a visible object with the eye,” herein he is a bhikkhu established in the virtue of Pātimokkha restraint. On seeing a visible object with the eye: on seeing a visible object with the eye-consciousness that is capable of seeing visible objects and has borrowed the name “eye” from its instrument. But the Ancients (porāṇā) said: “The eye does not see a visible object because it has no mind. The mind does not see because it has no eyes. But when there is the impingement of door and object he sees by means of the consciousness that has eye-sensitivity as its physical basis. Now, (an idiom) such as this is called an ’accessory locution’ (sasambhārakathā), like ’He shot him with his bow,’ and so on. So the meaning here is this: ’On seeing a visible object with eye-consciousness’”.
https://www.bps.lk/olib/bp/bp207h_The-P ... magga).pdf
Spiny Norman
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Re: Pali Terms: Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivhā, Kāya, Mano

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:55 pm
rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:52 pm Thank you VERY MUCH for this thread.
I was thinking that DO makes absolutely no sense if salayatana is referring to organs and not sensitivity (ie, sight...), since nāmarūpa comes before and is basically eye, nose, body...
Close. Nāmarūpa doesn’t mean “eye, nose”‘etc. It’s means “designation & appearance” as per the Upanishads, where the Buddha got the concept from. See DN 15. Its in the Abhidhamma commentaries where nāmarūpa means “mind and matter”.
SN 12, the Nidanasamyutta, is the main treatment of DO in the suttas, so that is the best place to look for a "definition" of nama-rupa. Have a look at SN 12.2, where all the nidanas are clearly described.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Pali Terms: Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivhā, Kāya, Mano

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:24 pm Close. Nāmarūpa doesn’t mean “eye, nose”‘etc. It’s means “designation & appearance” as per the Upanishads, where the Buddha got the concept from. See DN 15. Its in the Abhidhamma commentaries where nāmarūpa means “mind and matter”.
SN 12, the Nidanasamyutta, is the main treatment of DO in the suttas, so that is the best place to look for a "definition" of nama-rupa. Have a look at The Long Discourses: Dhamma as literature and compilation, where all the obvious about the DN are clearly described.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Pali Terms: Cakkhu, Sota, Ghāna, Jivhā, Kāya, Mano

Post by Spiny Norman »

rhinoceroshorn wrote: Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:59 pm What I mean is: if rūpa in nāmarūpa is the four great elements, it means that in DO, eye already exists in the level of nāmarūpa. What differentiates it from salāyatana is the sensitivity of the latter.

A festering corpse has rūpa, not āyatanas, to illustrate.
Yes, and the sense-bases (ayatana) depend on the sense-organs (rupa). If you haven't got eyes, you won't have the ability to see.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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