paṭiccasamuppāda

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Bundokji
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paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Bundokji »

Is there a consensus between Pali scholars that the meaning of paṭiccasamuppāda is dependent origination or dependent arising? are there any alternative translations?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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DooDoot
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Re: paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by DooDoot »

paṭicca (dependent) sam (co/together) uppāda (arising/origination) :mrgreen:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pegembara
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Re: paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by pegembara »

Dependent co-arising makes a lot more sense than dependent origination imo.
The opposite is dependent cesssation.
"Very well then, Kotthita my friend, I will give you an analogy; for there are cases where it is through the use of an analogy that intelligent people can understand the meaning of what is being said. It is as if two sheaves of reeds were to stand leaning against one another. In the same way, from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name & form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of suffering & stress.

"If one were to pull away one of those sheaves of reeds, the other would fall; if one were to pull away the other, the first one would fall. In the same way, from the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of consciousness, from the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
When this is, that is.
From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
When this isn't, that isn't.
From the stopping of this comes the stopping of that.
Thinker <---> Thoughts
Experiencer <---> Experiences
Consciousness <----> Objects of consciousness
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Assaji
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Re: paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Assaji »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pm Is there a consensus between Pali scholars that the meaning of paṭiccasamuppāda is dependent origination or dependent arising? are there any alternative translations?
You can find some answers in the dedicated thread:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5974
Bundokji
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Re: paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Bundokji »

Thank you for the answers and contributions.

From my basic knowledge, some languages were exclusive to certain groups. For example, sanskrit was a language mainly taught to Brahmans, and its equivalence in western culture is Latin which was mainly taught to priests and theologians. I am not sure what to make of Pali. In our modern age, Pali is leaned by an exclusive few even though its open to anyone who wish to learn it. When i try to think why practitioners go into lengths to study an ancient language, apart from purely scholarly purposes, is that its grammatical structure might be conducive to insight.

What could be noteworthy is that the term paṭiccasamuppāda has no spaces within it, but all available translations into English that i know of always present it as a compound. One would assume that those who heard the term were capable of making a sense of it without breaking it down.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
thomaslaw
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Re: paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by thomaslaw »

Bundokji wrote: Wed Jul 28, 2021 1:31 pm Is there a consensus between Pali scholars that the meaning of paṭiccasamuppāda is dependent origination or dependent arising? are there any alternative translations?
Yes, it is also translated as "arising by causal condition". See the attachment pdf:
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Pages 150-1 from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf
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Pulsar
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Re: paṭiccasamuppāda

Post by Pulsar »

OP wrote
I am not sure what to make of Pali.
Neither am I, the way things are translated by the experts??? For instance there was a
passage translated by one expert, I B Horner which inspired me to no end, then another modern monastic translated it completely differently, which shocked me. When asked what the reason was, I was told the first scholar got the Pali grammar wrong.
Go figure. I thought "hmm...maybe she got the grammar wrong, but the doctrine right" but one cannot quarrel with the superpowers. Dissident voices find a safer haven in silence.

I concluded, that the way scholars translate Pali is informed by the abhidhamma they follow.
If they are influenced by late Theravada abhidhamma the meaning becomes one thing. If they are influenced by early Theravada abhidhamma the meaning is something else.
Recently I read that the
"earliest abhidhamma texts of each tradition tended to look quite similar (compare for example the Sariputtabhidhamma of the Dharmagupta with the Dharmaskhandha of the Sarvastivadin and the Vibhanga of the Theravadin)
The later abhidhamma texts of each tradition develop new theories and introduce new technical terms in an attempt to answer questions not addressed in the suttas. After the abhidhamma introduced new technical terms to address problems in the suttas, the abhidhamma collections that they were composing began to diverge doctrinally"
You wrote
grammatical structure might be conducive to insight.
This is a great question, If you read all the footnotes of VBB, in the nikayas, you will be blown away by the many grammatical errors he points to, in some very critical suttas.
I am encouraged that you question these things.
With love :candle:
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