The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

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mjaviem
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:20 pm OK. To review:

1. Craving for good reputation, fame, honor, etc, must be a form of becoming.

Therefore, the new questions are:

1. Is attachment to money & housing, which makes a person feel secure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to forms visible by the eye?

2. Is attachment to fame & reputation, which makes an ego feel pleasure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to pleasant sounds heard by the eyes, such as compliments and no criticism?

:shrug:
:shrug: I don't know. It would seem they are in the sensual realm. They are likeable sense objects so, it seems so. Though I can't imagine attachment to something in "the luminuous form" or in the "formless" realms. Don't now what kind of elements are there.
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mjaviem
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:20 pm OK. To review:

1. Craving for good reputation, fame, honor, etc, must be a form of becoming.

Therefore, the new questions are:

1. Is attachment to money & housing, which makes a person feel secure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to forms visible by the eye?

2. Is attachment to fame & reputation, which makes an ego feel pleasure, a type of sensual becoming; that is, attachment to pleasant sounds heard by the eyes, such as compliments and no criticism?

:shrug:
:shrug: I don't know. It would seem they are in the sensual realm. They are likeable sense objects so, it seems so. Though I can't imagine attachment to something in "the luminuous form" or in the "formless" realms. Don't now what kind of elements are there.
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Assaji
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by Assaji »

Hi,
DooDoot wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 3:15 am Are there any Suttas or Pali commentary that support the idea 'rupa' can refer to literal 'material objects' (such as money & houses) and 'arupa' can refer to fame, honor, reputation, etc?
This is a forum dedicated to the Theravada Buddhist doctrine. Postmodern DIY Buddhism is best discussed elsewhere.

:anjali:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

Assaji wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 3:34 pm This is a forum dedicated to the Theravada Buddhist doctrine. Postmodern DIY Buddhism is best discussed elsewhere.
Sounds off-topic. Is the above confusing Russian Buddhism with Australian Buddhism? :)

MN 117 says:
There is right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions [of becoming];
The Abhidhamma says:
Therein what is “because of attachment becoming arises”? Becoming by way of twofold division: Is action-becoming; is resultant-becoming.

Therein what is action-becoming? Activity producing good/merit (resultant), activity producing bad (resultant), activity producing unshakeable (resultant). This is called action-becoming. Also all action leading to becoming is action-becoming.

Therein what is resultant-becoming? Becoming (in the plane of) desire, becoming (in the plane of) form, becoming (in the) formless (plane), perception-becoming, non-perception-becoming, neither perception nor non-perception-becoming, single aggregate becoming, four aggregate becoming, five aggregate becoming. This is called resultant-becoming. This is called “because of attachment becoming arises”.

https://suttacentral.net/vb6/en/thittila
Therefore, it appears meritorious becoming, per MN 117, called "puññābhisaṅkhāro kammabhava" in the Abhidhamma, is not sensual becoming. Therefore, it must be formless becoming. Otherwise, the Buddha's teaching was deficient.

For example, imagine self-believing you are an expert on Dhamma because you take refuge in Western dictionaries. Then when someone asks you a question about language, you get angry at the questioner & self-righteous, believing you are the Buddha; even though you were born (paccājāyanti) in a Communist country (in the borderlands, among strange barbarian tribes). This is obviously not "sensual becoming". Therefore, it must be a form of "arupa bhava".

:smile:

The word "arupa" appears not exclusively about arupa spheres, as follows:
Incorporeal mind, far-traveler, lone-wanderer:
Arūpa dūraṅgama ekacāri,

I won’t do your bidding any more.
Na te karissaṁ vacanaṁ idānihaṁ;

Sensual pleasures are suffering, painful and very dangerous;
Dukkhā hi kāmā kaṭukā mahabbhayā,

I’ll wander with my mind focused only on quenching.
Nibbānamevābhimano carissaṁ.

https://suttacentral.net/thag19.1/en/sujato
:buddha1:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:32 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:03 pm While bhavāsava is a mental factor or state, bhava by itself is not an āsava. How would that even be logical? To say that bhava is bhavāsava because bhavāsava has bhava in it? A wheel is a car, because a car has wheels?
No. The asava of sensuality leads to sensual becoming. The asava of becoming leads to becoming. All are mental states.
samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:03 pmAnd it would make no sense whatsoever for the 10th link of Dependent Origination/paṭiccasamuppāda of bhava to be "a mental state of bhavāsava"—let alone that being the condition for the 11th link of rebirth/jāti.
Jati appears to not mean "rebirth". Suttas were already quoted to you, such as MN 44, which says bhava is the arising of self-identification. "Jati" appears to refer to the birth of "beings" ("sattanam"). SN 23.2 & SN 5.10 appear to define "a being" ("satta") as a "view". It appears to all be mental, such as in MN 86 when the Buddha said Angulimala was "born into the noble birth".
samseva wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 2:03 pm
PTS dictionary wrote:Bhava [cp. Sk. bhava, as philosophical term late, but as N. of a deity Vedic; of bhū, see bhavati] "becoming," (form of) re- birth, (state of) existence, a "life."
The dictionary above is obviously wrong. Obviously bhava as rebirth cannot lead to jati as rebirth. I already informed you MN 121 says when the experience of emptiness there is no bhava but life remains. MN 38 also clearly says bhava ceases when the eyes see the form. I suggest to take refuge in the sutta rather than in Oxford University dictionaries advised by Sri Lankans when the Sangha was close to extinct in Sri Lanka. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by MarkA »

Rupabhava and Arupabhava are the 6th & 7th samyojana. 2600 years ago yogis attaining Jhanas perhaps was a common spiritual practice in India. In both of these states, though they are wonderful, asserts that ‘self’ is real. So my guess is Buddha wanted to make sure followers don’t get stuck in these two places. As then there is no further progress can be made on the path.
Hence, I propose that these two are mental states and not external objects or status etc.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:40 pm No. The asava of sensuality leads to sensual becoming. The asava of becoming leads to becoming. All are mental states.
Okay, if you want to think so.
DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:40 pm The dictionary above is obviously wrong.
lol
DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 9:40 pm rather than in Oxford University dictionaries advised by Sri Lankans when the Sangha was close to extinct in Sri Lanka. :smile:
You're quite the phenomenal character... And your "basement studies" are better, I'm guessing?

Anyway, no point in having such a discussion with someone like that.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

samseva wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:42 am And your "basement studies" are better, I'm guessing?
Its seem you are posting superstition. As for my studies, they quote the suttas, as i have done. :smile:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 2:46 am As for my studies, they quote the suttas, as i have done. :smile:
If by that you mean completely redefining Pāḷi words based on your interpretation of one or two Sutta passages,... it's true that is what you have done.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

samseva wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:01 am If by that you mean completely redefining Pāḷi words based on your interpretation of one or two Sutta passages,... it's true that is what you have done.
Sorry but dictionaries do not define Pali terms. Pali terms are defined in the suttas, such as:

AN 3.76 & 77 defining "bhava".

SN 12.2 defining "bhava" & "jati". SN 12.2 does not say "bhava" is "rebirth".

SN 23.2 defining "satta", which is the core term in the definition of "jati" & "marana" in SN 12.2.

I am not redefining words. It is the Pali dictionaries that are redefining words.

I made numerous sutta replies to you, which you appeared to ignore.

Regards :smile:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:07 am I am not redefining words. It is the Pali dictionaries that are redefining words.
Yeah, sure. You're right and all Pāḷi dictionaries are wrong. Again... if you want to think so.
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by DooDoot »

samseva wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:24 am Yeah, sure. You're right and all Pāḷi dictionaries are wrong. Again... if you want to think so.
I already suggested to you, if bhava means "rebirth" then it appears illogical for the Buddha to say "rebirth" ("bhava") is the condition for "rebirth" ("jati"). :? But, yes, the dictionaries are wrong, imo. :smile:

Best to stop the identitarian personality-view focus and, instead, examine the evidence. :spy:
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:35 am I already suggested to you, if bhava means "rebirth" then it appears illogical for the Buddha to say "rebirth" ("bhava") is the condition for "rebirth" ("jati"). :?
Bhava is not "rebirth"—bhava is "becoming," the process leading to rebirth, or "existence," existing, "life."

Exactly like in the PTS dictionary, and for every credible Pāḷi translation/scholar:
PTS dictionary wrote:Bhava [cp. Sk. bhava, as philosophical term late, but as N. of a deity Vedic; of bhū, see bhavati] []"becoming," (form of) re-birth, (state of) existence, a "life."
Rebirth—exactly as in Dependent Origination/paṭiccasamuppāda—is jāti.
DooDoot wrote: Tue Sep 21, 2021 3:35 am But, yes, the dictionaries are wrong, imo. :smile:
Maybe it's your interpretation of them that is incorrect?
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by samseva »

And what, bhikkhus, is dependent origination? With ignorance as condition, volitional formations come to be; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness; with consciousness as condition, name-and-form; with name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases; with the six sense bases as condition, contact; with contact as condition, feeling; with feeling as condition, craving; with craving as condition, clinging; with clinging as condition, existence; with existence as condition, birth; with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure, and despair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called dependent origination.
“Katamo ca, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo? Avijjāpaccayā, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā; saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ; viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ; nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ; saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso; phassapaccayā vedanā; vedanāpaccayā taṇhā; taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṁ; upādānapaccayā bhavo; bhavapaccayā jāti; jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṁ sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyāsā sambhavanti. Evametassa kevalassa dukkhakkhandhassa samudayo hoti. Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, paṭiccasamuppādo.
Paṭiccasamuppādasutta, SN 12.1 (translation, Bhikkhu Bodhi)
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Re: The meaning of "rupabhava" & "arupabhava"

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Sep 20, 2021 12:08 pm
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 amRupa jhana led to rupa becoming , if rupa is material objects' (such as money & houses) , thats means rupa jhana led to money and houses .
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 amSurely arupa jhana cannot lead to fame, honor, reputation !
asahi wrote: Sun Sep 19, 2021 9:02 amArupa jhana led to arupa becoming . Can there be arupa becoming without first developing arupa jhana ? No .

Forget about ajahn chah or buddhadasa .
I do respect them though . Forget about commentaries also .


Bhava is not defilement . Bhavasava is defilement . Bhava is describing as a process of "come-about" into a state directed by the force of kamma . Bhava is not a defilement , craving and attachment are defilements .


Now referring back to earlier your saying , rupa is material objects (such as money & houses) and arupa is immaterial objects (such as fame, honor, reputation) !

Now according to your belief , hypothesis and post-mortem , whichever best served ,

Fame , honor, reputation are more peaceful than the money & houses ?! 😱

Those beings who reach the form realm (money & houses)
And those established in the formless,(fame, honor, reputation)
,
how are they able going to develop Noble Eight Fold Path ?! 🤪

And how is it possible a person by not getting stuck in fame, honor, reputation are able to leave Death far behind them ?! 😂




💔 best regards


Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realm, and cessation is more peaceful than the formless.


Those beings who reach the form realm
And those established in the formless,

If they do not know cessation
Come back to renewal of being

Those who fully understand form
Without getting stuck in the formless
Are released into cessation
And leave Death far behind them.
No bashing No gossiping
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