mahābhūtā

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Ontheway
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mahābhūtā

Post by Ontheway »

Hi Pali readers, quick question.

Pali phrase "cattāro ca mahābhūtā", is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?

Or "Four great elements" better?

But usually I read "Dhatu" as element...

Thank you in advance.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Ceisiwr
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Re: mahābhūtā

Post by Ceisiwr »

I believe the literal translation would be "four great existents"
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
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Re: mahābhūtā

Post by Ontheway »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:09 pm I believe the literal translation would be "four great existents"
The word "existent" in English is adjective.
Since bhūtā here is a noun, is it okay to put "existent" for it? Will it be a grammatical error ?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sphairos
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Re: mahābhūtā

Post by sphairos »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:06 pm is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?
I don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".

Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".

"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.

But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Last edited by sphairos on Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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How true are your ways?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: mahābhūtā

Post by Ceisiwr »

sphairos wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:06 pm is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?
I don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".

Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".

"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.

But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well.
:goodpost:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Ontheway
Posts: 3062
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: mahābhūtā

Post by Ontheway »

sphairos wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:06 pm is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?
I don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".

Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".

"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.

But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Thank you for the valuable info. I will scrap "four great essentials".

Since you mentioned:
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming"

Now I choosing one of these:

(1) Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Four Great Elements"
(2) Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Four Great Existents"

Isn't (2) closer to the meaning intended by the Pali word? But I worry about the grammatical error too since the Pali word is a noun while "existent" is an adjective...
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sphairos
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Location: Munich, Germany

Re: mahābhūtā

Post by sphairos »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:43 pm
sphairos wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:06 pm is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?
I don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".

Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".

"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.

But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Thank you for the valuable info. I will scrap "four great essentials".

Since you mentioned:
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming"

Now I choosing one of these:

(1) Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Four Great Elements"
(2) Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Four Great Existents"

Isn't (2) closer to the meaning intended by the Pali word? But I worry about the grammatical error too since the Pali word is a noun while "existent" is an adjective...
You are most welcome.

I would as a rule of thumb always go with what Ven. Bodhi translates -- he has a great knowledge of Pāli and a great sense of language in general (Sprachgefühl).

Don't worry about parts of speech -- English is a highly analytical language and any word (theoretically) can be any part of speech.

"Existent" is also a possible translation, but it lacks this connotation of a fundamental constituent of reality, that "element" has.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
Ontheway
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Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:35 pm

Re: mahābhūtā

Post by Ontheway »

sphairos wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:56 pm
Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:43 pm
sphairos wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pm

I don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".

Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".

"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.

But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Thank you for the valuable info. I will scrap "four great essentials".

Since you mentioned:
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming"

Now I choosing one of these:

(1) Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Four Great Elements"
(2) Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Four Great Existents"

Isn't (2) closer to the meaning intended by the Pali word? But I worry about the grammatical error too since the Pali word is a noun while "existent" is an adjective...
You are most welcome.

I would as a rule of thumb always go with what Ven. Bodhi translates -- he has a great knowledge of Pāli and a great sense of language in general (Sprachgefühl).

Don't worry about parts of speech -- English is a highly analytical language and any word (theoretically) can be any part of speech.

"Existent" is also a possible translation, but it lacks this connotation of a fundamental constituent of reality, that "element" has.
Thanks a lot for the analysis. Now I will stick with Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation. :bow:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Gwi
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Re: mahābhūtā

Post by Gwi »

Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:06 pm Hi Pali readers, quick question.

Pali phrase "cattāro ca mahābhūtā", is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?

Or "Four great elements" better?

But usually I read "Dhatu" as element...

Thank you in advance.
Mahābhūtå = Main/Great Components/Elements
--> there r four

"Katamā cāvuså, cattārå (four) mahābhūtā?
Pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu."


Mahābhūtå: Great Elements (Main Components)
Cattārå Mahābhūtā: Four Great Elements
(4 Main Components)
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Ontheway
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Re: mahābhūtā

Post by Ontheway »

Gwi wrote: Sun Sep 26, 2021 3:58 am
Ontheway wrote: Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:06 pm Hi Pali readers, quick question.

Pali phrase "cattāro ca mahābhūtā", is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?

Or "Four great elements" better?

But usually I read "Dhatu" as element...

Thank you in advance.
Mahābhūtå = Main/Great Components/Elements
--> there r four

"Katamā cāvuså, cattārå (four) mahābhūtā?
Pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu."


Mahābhūtå: Great Elements (Main Components)
Cattārå Mahābhūtā: Four Great Elements
(4 Main Components)
Thanks for info :thumbsup:
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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