Hi Pali readers, quick question.
Pali phrase "cattāro ca mahābhūtā", is it okay if I use the translation "Four primary essentials" ?
Or "Four great elements" better?
But usually I read "Dhatu" as element...
Thank you in advance.
mahābhūtā
mahābhūtā
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: mahābhūtā
I believe the literal translation would be "four great existents"
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: mahābhūtā
The word "existent" in English is adjective.
Since bhūtā here is a noun, is it okay to put "existent" for it? Will it be a grammatical error ?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: mahābhūtā
I don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".
"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.
But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Last edited by sphairos on Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
How true are your ways?
Re: mahābhūtā
sphairos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pmI don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".
"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.
But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: mahābhūtā
Thank you for the valuable info. I will scrap "four great essentials".sphairos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pmI don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".
"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.
But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Since you mentioned:
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming"
Now I choosing one of these:
(1) Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Four Great Elements"
(2) Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Four Great Existents"
Isn't (2) closer to the meaning intended by the Pali word? But I worry about the grammatical error too since the Pali word is a noun while "existent" is an adjective...
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: mahābhūtā
You are most welcome.Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:43 pmThank you for the valuable info. I will scrap "four great essentials".sphairos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pmI don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".
"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.
But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Since you mentioned:
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming"
Now I choosing one of these:
(1) Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Four Great Elements"
(2) Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Four Great Existents"
Isn't (2) closer to the meaning intended by the Pali word? But I worry about the grammatical error too since the Pali word is a noun while "existent" is an adjective...
I would as a rule of thumb always go with what Ven. Bodhi translates -- he has a great knowledge of Pāli and a great sense of language in general (Sprachgefühl).
Don't worry about parts of speech -- English is a highly analytical language and any word (theoretically) can be any part of speech.
"Existent" is also a possible translation, but it lacks this connotation of a fundamental constituent of reality, that "element" has.
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
How true are your ways?
Re: mahābhūtā
Thanks a lot for the analysis. Now I will stick with Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation.sphairos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:56 pmYou are most welcome.Ontheway wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:43 pmThank you for the valuable info. I will scrap "four great essentials".sphairos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 25, 2021 4:34 pm
I don't think so, because in the Pāli word mahābhūto there is nothing about being "essential".
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming" etc. As p.p. it can be be an adjective or a noun in a sentence.
In this regard they are more "derivatives" than "essentials".
"Great elements" with the old meaning of "element" in mind (elements of nature - rain, fire etc.) is a good translation.
But in language everything depends on the context. If in your context "primary essentials" is justifiable and serves the right purpose you may translate it like that as well, but that would more of an "interpretation" than a "translation".
Since you mentioned:
Bhūta in Sanskrit and Pāli is from verbal "root" √bhū, "to be, to exist, to become, arise, come into being" etc. But bhūta is a past participle and means "grown, become; born, produced; nature as the result of becoming"
Now I choosing one of these:
(1) Bhikkhu Bodhi's "Four Great Elements"
(2) Thanissaro Bhikkhu's "Four Great Existents"
Isn't (2) closer to the meaning intended by the Pali word? But I worry about the grammatical error too since the Pali word is a noun while "existent" is an adjective...
I would as a rule of thumb always go with what Ven. Bodhi translates -- he has a great knowledge of Pāli and a great sense of language in general (Sprachgefühl).
Don't worry about parts of speech -- English is a highly analytical language and any word (theoretically) can be any part of speech.
"Existent" is also a possible translation, but it lacks this connotation of a fundamental constituent of reality, that "element" has.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Re: mahābhūtā
Mahābhūtå = Main/Great Components/Elements
--> there r four
"Katamā cāvuså, cattārå (four) mahābhūtā?
Pathavīdhātu, āpodhātu, tejodhātu, vāyodhātu."
Mahābhūtå: Great Elements (Main Components)
Cattārå Mahābhūtā: Four Great Elements
(4 Main Components)
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
Re: mahābhūtā
Thanks for info
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.
https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false