Hotim hū, and bhū

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
ToVincent
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

ssasny wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 7:54 pm Bhavati/hoti does indeed have the sense of 'to become' sometimes, but it also has the basic sense of 'to be' which in the present tense singular = 'is'.
But what does the √as/√bhū commutability, has to do with the use of √hve, in the context of the (subtle) Vedic "call", that applies to "idaṃ hoti"?
:redherring:
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Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
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Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
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(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

Nothing? It doesn't apply to that at all?
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Oct 12, 2021 8:08 pmI remember Coëmgenu sharing a paper with me discussing how bhavati/atthi had started to become used interchangeably by even the Rig veda. Perhaps he could comment further.
Page 4 gives a chart with a distribution of "hoti" and "atthi" copulae: https://www.jstor.org/stable/24655267?r ... b_contents
hotiastidistribution.JPG
On terms of their interchangeable usage, several examples given in the paper (which requires a Google account to access) illustrate the arbitrary choice of copula when it is functioning as a copula paired with a past participle. The two retain separate meanings as well.

From the paper:

anupaṣṭo bhavaty eṣo asya yaḥ ... na sunoti somam
He who does not press soma is spied out by him.

tasyām evāsya tad devaitāyāṃ hutaṃ bhavati ya evaṃ veda
Thus that is offered in this divinity by him who knows thus.

yā imā oṣadhayo grīṣmahemantābhyāṃ nityaktā bhavanti tā varṣā vardhante
The plants, which are shrunken in the summer and winter, grow during the rains.

Examples with the "atthi-type" copula are even more plenteous. Here it is in the imperfect:

ye ta āsan daśa jātā devā devebhyaḥ purā
Those ten gods who were born from the gods previously [...]
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
ssasny
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ssasny »

idaṃ hoti = 'there is this'. Or if I suppose if one wants to be fancy one could say, 'this comes into being.'
But the Buddha is speaking simply here, not like a German philosopher!
sphairos
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by sphairos »

Yes, I also confirm that what toVincent is saying is pure fantasy and delusion, and it doesn't work phonetically.

And I also confirm that bhavati and asti are interchangeable in the Ṛgveda and in later literature.

Idaṃ hoti is simply (literally) "this is". In literary English you need to transform it into "there is this", but many languages allow such statements without copula formula (being expressed as "there is").
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
ToVincent
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

ssasny wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 12:19 pm idaṃ hoti = 'there is this'. Or if I suppose if one wants to be fancy one could say, 'this comes into being.'
But the Buddha is speaking simply here, not like a German philosopher!
This kind of rationale is ostensibly valid, but not actually valid.
Buddha simply says "this calls", like a philosopher of his time, moving past the ritualistic "call", to the symbolic meta-ritualistic "call" — that explains perfectly the growth (virūḷha*) of consciousness.
* vi-√ ruh : to grow out , sprout , bud (RV. AV. TBr)

No German philosophy applies.
:redherring:
______

As this conversation is veering towards the obvious "hoti" and "atthi" (√bhū/√as) commutability, I might as well stop being interested and engaged in this dead end discussion.
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.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

But he doesn't say "calls" at all in the idaṃ hoti pericope.
"...and so concludes the exposition of the originated," spake Thomas the Bodhi Wizard. Then, he summarized in a verse:

"I tell you as I told my darling Auntie Wanda,
'It's all a ball of wibbly-wobbly Dharma-Wharma.'"

They rejoiced and lauded.

(Dharmatā verse from the Sūtra of Dubious Import)
ToVincent
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

The logic of some people is just killing me.
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.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Sam Vara
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Sam Vara »

ToVincent wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:56 pm The logic of some people is just killing me.
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Killing, or calling?
sphairos
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by sphairos »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:12 pm
ToVincent wrote: Wed Oct 13, 2021 1:56 pm The logic of some people is just killing me.
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Killing, or calling?
:clap: :thumbsup:
How good and wonderful are your days,
How true are your ways?
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