Hotim hū, and bhū

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
ToVincent
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:22 pm
ToVincent wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 3:19 pmOne has to use the proper meaning of a word, as it has developed up to the time of Buddha.
And this is precisely why you can't used generalized etymological stems, abstractions derived from a Vedic period, closer to Proto-Indo-European than the Buddha's Prākrit in many ways, to divine new meanings for words, as you do.

The abstract meanings of the stems to not trump the particular meanings of the words themselves.
from the same person who, in this same thread, refers to something derived from a Vedic period, closer to Proto-Indo-European than the Buddha's Prākrit
viewtopic.php?p=649445#p649445
!?!?!
Go figure!

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And I don't " Devine words" — I get them from proper pre-Buddhist historical literary sources — from Sanskrit dictionaries.
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Moderator note: pointless insults removed from this post. Please keep it clean.
Last edited by ToVincent on Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

That was to establish that, already, well by the Buddha's time, well-before the Buddha's time even, the asti and bhavati are interchangeable when functioning as a copula, particularly a copula in tandem with a past participle. They are also used as such by the Buddha, which we can substantiate by studying where copulas occur in Pāli texts. Should we start a thread for that?

What do you think you are demonstrating by linking to that post? That I'm a horrible hypocrite who calls the kettle black?

You can't use abstract Vedic roots to re-define the Prākrit languages that the buddhavacana is preserved in. Even Buddhist Sanskrit texts are very much post-Vedic.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:22 pm You can't use abstract Vedic roots to re-define the Prākrit languages that the buddhavacana is preserved in.
That exactly what you did with the √ भू bhū.
viewtopic.php?p=649445#p649445
!?!?!?

You remind me of a conversation I had with Assaji (at the time using another name).
Assaji was telling me, that I could not use Sanskrit roots to define Pali roots.
And on top of that, he gave me the reference of a book, written by a pundit on Pali roots.
Guess what?
In the introduction of the book, the said pundit was saying that most, if not all the Pali roots are derived from Sanskrit roots.
How absurd was that?
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

That would be a point, if only the Buddha did not also use hoti and atthi interchangeably when using it as a copula. Give me a while, then I'll give you a list of copula usages parallel to the Ṛgvedic list that will make why it is relevant, and why it is not a re-defining of a Prākrit word according to an abstract meaning derived from a Vedic root, more apparent to you.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ssasny
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ssasny »

Lexicographers create definitions by studying how a word is used within a language.

What do we see when we look up a word in Margaret Cone's magnificent Dictionary of Pali? Long lists of citations where the word was used in the Canon. By studying all the instances of a word's usage a definition can be made.

By instead rejecting this practice and relying on Vedic roots pieced together, one runs the risk of implying the Buddha spoke in a type of code that needs to be cracked, that the true meaning of his words lies somewhere outside the conventional meaning.

But there is no evidence that the Buddha spoke in a code, everything points to him speaking clearly and openly.
ToVincent
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

What are you talking about?

Now we are into "magnificent" dictionaries and "codish" — and "copula et cetera".

I am just taking two words; namely paṭicca (fr. pacceti), and paccaya - coming both from prati-√ i.
I am giving the meaning of the verb prati-√ i; from pre- Buddhist literary sources.
(Check the meaning of pacceti, by the way — in the "howling" PTS https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/p/pacceti/
Not that I trust too much this "heavenly" dictionary — if it is for its references for the Sanskrit roots - on which most, if not all Pali words rely on).


I am even giving you the historical meaning of nidāna.

And you are still wanting to come up with that causal or conditional "depending on" meaning, coming out of nowhere.

"... définitions can be made" — really? — Oh!

?!?!?

Do whatever you want.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ssasny
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ssasny »

I wish you good health and happiness in your explorations of the Dhamma.
ToVincent
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

ssasny wrote: Tue Oct 26, 2021 8:10 pm I wish you good health and happiness in your explorations of the Dhamma.
Me too.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by Coëmgenu »

Your blustering attempts to foment doubt about this matter as well as expressing an inability to follow the general conversation...

i.e. "What are you talking about?" "really? — Oh!" "?!?!?" "Do whatever you want."

...lead to me suspect that this is entirely all too far over your head. I similarly wish you healthy happiness, but am not as happy to let doubt-mongering concerning basic elements of the buddhavacana slide. Perhaps you'll meet a more forgiving me in the future who cares less about twistings of the grammar and semantics of the Buddha's word.

In order to follow this thread, you'll need to throw out a lot of the assumptions that you clearly take to philology, such as your apparent belief that Pāli being predicated on Sanskrit roots means that you can take ancient Sanskrit roots and use them to re-define the particular language of the Pāli Buddhist texts, which date from far after the period these roots point to. Also, your distain of the academic establishment and the dictionaries which you disparage by sarcastically calling them "heavenly" is something you'll need to ditch if you actually want to learn real material and not just continue to invent your own internal fancies built around these similarly-"heavenly" roots.

Here are some copulae. I'm not good enough at Pāli to give you Pāli copulae paired with a past participle (that way, it would be identical to the earlier citation of the paper with the Ṛgvedic copulae that you shone doubt upon the relevancy of) so you'll have to deal just with standard copulae. Of course, this...
Now we are into "magnificent" dictionaries and "codish" — and "copula et cetera".
...tells me that you likely don't know what we're talking about right now, why I'm saying this that I'm saying, and likely don't understand why it is being brought up. I am not sure if you understand that you are the one contesting this citation, and will likely accuse me of going off on a tangent because you don't understand this post.

kammuna vasalo hoti "he is a pariah by reason of his work"
puttā me n'atthi "I have no sons" (lit. "no sons are to me")

The copula + dative is very similar to how Classical Arabic forms possessives. Both of the above examples are from Charles Duroiselle.

None of this will help if you can't understand why this is being typed. The reason why the citation of Ṛgvedic copulae is not a re-defining of Pāli according to Vedic roots is because the Buddha, in the actual Pāli texts, uses these copulae interchangeably, just as in the Vedic examples. He does not use "hoti" as "to call" derived from "hve." He does not use "uppajjati" with a sense of "'to come forth' in a debased way (fall)." These are examples of taking a Vedic root and having that Vedic root lead you further away from the Prākrit meaning of a particular word rather than closer to it.

The etymology of the word "sanction" comes, ultimately, from words referring to making something "holy." Holy things were considered "apart" at one time, because they were too holy to be touched, seen, etc. Seeing them, touching them, etc., would "desecrate" them (another related word, etymologically). From the sense of "holy things apart" we get "forbidden." They are forbidden to be touched.

It would be daft to suggest that an English speaker, perhaps even an English-speaking Buddha, when he sanctioned the alcohol consumption of his assembly, that he made their alcohol holy. Yet, this is the very thing you do with these Vedic roots.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
ToVincent
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Wed Oct 27, 2021 11:36 am ...
Have you noticed that this conversation has veered long ago on the meaning of paṭicca and paccaya (and incidently on nidāna).
?!?!?!

Irrelevant personal attack removed by moderator.

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And yes! — I'm (still) wondering why a dictionary can reference the Sanskrit root of a Pali word; and still use a post-Buddhist meaning of it, coming from a post- Buddhist Sanskrit literary source.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
ToVincent
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Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Re: Hotim hū, and bhū

Post by ToVincent »

So let me reformulate the "personal attack":
"Why don't you follow and read what people said in the thread?"

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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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