Nāmarūpa

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
sydimplosion
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by sydimplosion »

Giving concrete identities to mental and physical forms. Like watching a movie but only seeing frames
asahi
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by asahi »

The definition from SN12.2 on namarupa appears to be derived from Śāriputrābhidharma-śāstra . And it could be a modified explication .
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Fri Oct 29, 2021 6:10 am The definition from SN12.2 on namarupa appears to be derived from Śāriputrābhidharma-śāstra . And it could be a modified explication .
It's possible. But if we change the nidana "definitions" in SN12.2, we can make DO mean pretty much anything we want it to. It's rather like changing the word definitions in a sentence.
You could argue that the nidana definitions were changed over time in order to change the meaning of DO, though I suspect this would be difficult to substantiate.
In any case, I don't see how the definition of nama-rupa in SN12.2 supports the "naming form" interpretation that some put forward.
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auto
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Re: Nāmarūpa

Post by auto »

Nama-Rupa and Dharma-Rupa: Origins and Aspects of an Ancient Indian Conception
By Maryla Falk

The source of the Indian binomium is in fact to be found in the specific ideology which underlies a cosmogonic myth elaborated in several speculative texts of the Rgveda. It hinges on the idea that before the beginnning of things, before the manifestation of multiplicity, all rupas were one rupa, viz. the unmanifest shape of the universal Purusa, and all namas were one nama, viz. the unuttered universal Vac. The negative valuation implicit in the notion of namarupa is due to the fact that it was laden with the sense of differentiation of the original infinite unity. I have pointed out elsewhere that Vac was hypostatized as a female aspect of Purusa, who was conceived as androgynous. At the beginning of the process of manifestation the Androgyne splits into the male and the female: this is the primordial event frequently described in the cosmogonies of the Brahmanas and of the Upanishads. Older specimens of this cosmogonic conception are found in a group of Rgvedic hymns, among which the Purusasukta supplies its most genuine formulation. Here it is said that from Purusa emanated Viraj; then of Viraj Purusa was born, a cosmic being. This Purusa(=Narayana), son of the hypercosmic Man and of the Waters, i.e of the primal heavenly Lightocean Viraj who is the hypercosmic Vac, was immolated in a sacrifice performed by the demiurges(gods of Rsis) and dismembered into multiplicity of the contingent cosmos.
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In III 38, where this peculiar cosmogonic concenption is wrapped up in elements of the traditional symbolic imagery of the Rgveda, the Androgyne is represented as "Bull-Cow"(the current image of the cow is applied to the primordial female Aditi-Viraj in here character of supernal LIght-ocean, fountainhead of all life and source of its continued sustenation. His Name is great, his Form is universal: thus he remained on the plain of Immortality. But the rsis or kavis as "artificers" of the cosmos were busy around him as he came hither, so that the self-luminous now moves clad in the splendorous. The Purusasukta provides explanation of this difficult stanza. Evidently the two conditions of the primeval being as father and son, hypercosmic archetype and cosmic ectype, are alluded to (cf.5a). The 7th st. speaks of the son as victim: of this Bull-Cow they measured out the essence with names, while assuming ever new divine forms, they measured out the Form in him.
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From the collation of these texts it appears that the existence of nama-rupa is due to two consecutive acts of division: first the separation of the
two aspects of universal Being, then the dismemberment of its twin-and-one cosmic manifestation.
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The diversification of the primordial cosmic unity is also a concealment of its original nature. The self-luminous moves about clad in the splendorous
of cosmic light, which are not his own forms: "it is his(from, cf.7cd), not mine, the golden birghtness which Savitar has difused"(8ab). But the
inspiration of the seer penetrates beyond(cf. 1c) the cosmogonic achievement of the kavis to the primal essence, the dharman(2);this indeed is the secret reality by concealing which they arranged for their rule heaven and earth, and which they inserted between two worlds(3): the current conception of the cosmic Purusa as Skambha, the world-pillar, is alluded to.
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Analogous facts are related about Vac: she was the first sacrificial substance(X,125, 3b) - not indeed her secret three quarters which are immovable, but the quarter of Vac which is spoken speech(I, 164,45). This manifest Vac the gods divided in many a way, so that she has many abodes and many revelations(I, 125,3cd). When those who founded name-giving set about their task, the first and topmost portion of this manifested Speech, which they found most excellent an pure, was hidden by them(X,71,1); the higher names were hidden by the kavis who watch the seat of rta(X,5, 2cd;X,117,2cd says that in the seat of rta they watch the radiant sounding - i.e uttered - Wisdom, Vac). They formed seven boundaries, so that the quarry should step into one of them: thus the Pillar of supernal Life, which abides where all ways end, came to stand on the ground(X,5,6). For us Agni is the firstborn of rta, but in the prior age it was the Bull-Cow(7).
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In its cosmic division and concealment the primal Being's own transcendent reality( "the all-knowing but not the all-pervading Vac" I, 164, 10d; the dharman, III,38,2d) cannot be perceived by common consciousness: only the seer in his ecstasy may perceive it; " I have no discriminating consciousness when I am, as it were, this(all): I live in secrecy and ready-hearted: when onto me comes the First-born of rta, then I attain the inheritance of Vac"(I, 164,37).Henceforth he is silent for ever about his visions, lest he lose her by utterance; (X,71,4-5): he to whom Vac has thus given her form as a lowing wife - by a spontaneous miracle, for otherwise she cannot be won(4ab) - is firmly guarded in this union, not even in the singing-matches is he incited(to give her out): he lives barren(i.e silent) autonoumous power(mayaya), having heard the fruitless and flowerless(i.e unuttered) Vac. This union actualizes in his inmost being the all-embracing cosmic unity of the primal mate of Vac, who knew her in the unuttered state(cf AV V, 1, 2): " Let the Lover(Vena) perceive the highest Being in the secret place(in the innermost heart, equated with the uppermost
-hypercosmic-heaven) where all becomes of one form"(AV.II,1,1): this supernal Light, in its hidden three quarters, is the all-knowing Father, the One origin of the namas of all the gods(2-3;cf. RV X, 90, 3d;X, 82, 2-3: the One is the "super aspect" of the creator and resides beyond the seven Rsis; 3cd=AV. II, 1, 3cd). The Vena knows the immortal(hidden) names(cf.above,p.5), while the vipras cognize and desire only the contingent rupa of the amrta and follow its perceptible sound(X,123,4). Having in one instant embraced the heaven and earth, the seer has attained the First-born of rta as Vac within him who speaks(AV. II, 1, 4). And in him the fourth quarter, which is the act of utterence he disjoins(vi-yunakti) from the great three quarters as(spoken) Speech, is again joined to them: for in him is effected the union(yujyate) of the One(VIII, 9,3).
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