The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Coëmgenu »

If you didn't think that I thought that he practiced them, then why ask me so? Curiouser and curiouser. Let it be known that there is Malice in Blunderland.

Anomalies of logic are normative when dealing with you and your theories, however, so it's really to be expected.

"Dost protest too much" is a Shakespeare reference that clearly went over your head.
Not the one and not another,
unending and impermanent --
of the many Buddhas' transformative teachings,
this is that sweet nectar's taste.

For if a Buddha is not born in the world,
or if the Buddhadharma is completely extinct,
all of the wisdom of the Pratyekabuddhas
would separately arise (from it).

(MMK XVIII.11-12 Madhyamakaśāstra T 1564.23c16)
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Sam Vara
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator request: please could people just stick to the topic without insulting one another? Some material has already been removed, and posts will be deleted if they contain insults.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Coëmgenu wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:22 pm If you didn't think that I thought that he practiced them, then why ask me so? Curiouser and curiouser. Let it be known that there is Malice in Blunderland.

Anomalies of logic are normative when dealing with you and your theories, however, so it's really to be expected.

"Dost protest too much" is a Shakespeare reference that clearly went over your head.
The sureties, like what is not in parenthesis (blue) - [as usual, you always manage your way out, by not adressing the major points].
Coëmgenu wrote:(The Buddha knew the Vedas.) That has no bearing on the Prākrit language he taught in. He didn't teach Vedanta. He has no reason to use Veda-specific meanings and terminology when he has his native Prākrit to use instead, a "language of the folk" rather than a language of the ritual sacrificers.
To the only surety you formulated above, namely "The Buddha knew the Vedas" — my answer meant to say: "not only did he know Veda, but moreover, he practiced it).

To which you answered: "Why would he have "practiced" any Veda at all"?

To which I answered to your enquiry - that sounded full of doubt (interrogation point) - by the extract in SN 7.9.

Sounds like you and I, were following the conversation alright, up to then.


Therefore, I consider your quote (minus the parenthesis,) as mere argumentum ex silentio.
And your answers to what is in parenthesis, as mere wriggling to escape your erroneous belief that, maybe Buddha never practiced Veda.
No "anomalies of logic" here.

However, there is quite an "anomaly of logic" here (I repeat) — viewtopic.php?p=656318#p656318
That is indeed strange logic - and attitude - to say the least.

_______

Shakespeare? — Who's that?
.
.
In this world, there are people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:56 am
Shakespeare? — Who's that?
This confirms my bias regarding Frenchmen being uncivilised :jumping: :tongue:
“When your last breath arrives, Grammar can do nothing.”

Ādi Śaṅkarācāryaḥ
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:37 pm This confirms my bias regarding Frenchmen being uncivilised :jumping: :tongue:
.
.
In this world, there are people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
auto
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Fri Dec 03, 2021 4:09 pm I have another grammatical blunder from Sujato.
It has just been brought by ssasny above.
viewtopic.php?p=656198#p656198

Kāmadhātuṃ (acc. sing.), bhikkhave, paṭicca uppajjati kāmasaññā (nom. sing or pl.) - (acc. pl.) - (instr. sing. ++)
The element of sensuality (kāmadhātuṃ) gives rise to sensual perceptions !?!?!?
How can Sujato translate kāmadhātuṃ as nominative?


The proper translation is:
Sensual perception(s) come into existence from the feedback through the element of sensuality.
Here paṭicca is a noun (nt.) , then check the second slide here: https://justpaste.it/5j329
Wouldn't it be an ablative (= "from the feedback").
are you saying that the sensual perceptions come into existence from the element of sensuality(feedback) through the element of sensuality?

When there is element of sensuality, that itself is not enough to cause sensual perceptions. There also needs be feedback - output of the element of sensuality needs be fed back to the element of sensualities input, only then the term paticca is confirmed and sensual perceptions start popping out?
ToVincent wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:57 am Saṅkhārā (nom. pl. m.) are the feedback of (by) avijjā.
In other words, avijjā is the "impulse" (hetu), whose feedbacks (paccaya) are saṅkhārā.
So,
the element of sensuality is the reason from(reason) what sensual perceptions arise.

For now i think Vincent has a point, its hard to make up a word what would show what paṭicca is.
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

auto wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:35 pm .....
There is indeed an element of sensuality (as "external" hetu) - and when someone experiences this element of sensuality, the latter sends a feedback to that person, and a sensual perception ensues.
The sensual perception comes into existence through this feedback of sensuality.

Paccaya is a very subtle feedback. It is not just a return to someone.
In our case, the element of sensuality receives also a feedback from that person.

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/we ... &h=10000#c

In other words:
1. The person asks for a feedback (response to an enquiry #2), when experiencing the element of sensuality.
2. The person receives a sensual perception - (feedback from the element of sensuality).

3. The element of sensuality receives in turn, a feedback from the person (return to its input, that "regulates" its further output #1).
But, if we look at the big picture, that is a response to its own inquiry, that originated from the avijjā nidāna.
What the person sends back - namely the desire for sensual perception - is how the element of sensuality has the knowledge of itself. And the element of sensuality will keep on feeding the person, as long as the person asks for it.

For the knowledge of the person is: "Hey! - there is this element of sensuality - let's try it (again).
Therefore, the knowledge of the element of sensuality is: "well !, if he keeps on asking, I must be made to deliver" - and I must tell that to the avijjā nidāna.
So that goes way back to the avijjā nidāna. And the avijjā nidāna says "well !, let's continue."
Simple way to put it.

Call it the infinite vicious cycle, of the "need for more".

If you are a luciferian, you will keep going through these feedbacks, brought by the element of sensuality, for the sake of more knowledge and exploration — thinking that all experiences should be tested before being accepted.

But if you're a true Buddhist, you will stop these feedbacks, by being mindful at the gates of the senses — because this "more knowledge" and "exploration (of the world of senses)" (papañca), is avijjā (dukkha) - not vijjā (vimutti & nibbāna — to be acquired through the knowledge of what brings about dukkha).

That's part of the all hetu/paccaya shebang.
.
.
In this world, there are people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
auto
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:33 pm .
look at this,
https://suttacentral.net/sn48.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: They understand:
So evaṁ pajānāti:
‘The faculty of pain has arisen in me. And that has a foundation, a source, a condition, and a reason.
‘uppannaṁ kho me idaṁ dukkhindriyaṁ, tañca kho sanimittaṁ sanidānaṁ sasaṅkhāraṁ sappaccayaṁ.
nimitta is produced by three poisons: greed, hate, delusion
nidāna of feelings is contact
saṅkhāra is what produces conditioned phenomena
paccaya, i don't know really what it is. But i can guess it's nearness of an object based of how the Sutta goes on,

standard description of jhāna here, its the reason why it could be possible that paccaya refers to nearness of sensual pleasures
https://suttacentral.net/sn48.40/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And where does that faculty of pain that’s arisen cease without anything left over?
Kattha cuppannaṁ dukkhindriyaṁ aparisesaṁ nirujjhati?
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.
Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati,
That’s where the faculty of pain that’s arisen ceases without anything left over.
ettha cuppannaṁ dukkhindriyaṁ aparisesaṁ nirujjhati.
They’re called a mendicant who understands the cessation of the faculty of pain, and who applies their mind to that end.
Ayaṁ vuccati, bhikkhave, ‘bhikkhu aññāsi dukkhindriyassa nirodhaṁ, tadatthāya cittaṁ
If one is too far(secluded) from the sensual object, one won't get feedback, and mind won't be overcome by greed, hate and delusion thus the citta what experiences dukkha etc won't arise
In your case, do you think one needs to do something or just being secluded from sensual pleasures(kāma) is enough?
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

auto wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:25 pm....
You are incorrigible auto. The first sutta that you are refering to has no parallel at all.
I'm sorry, but I made a point not to study these suttas - unless they really can unlock some logical riddle. And I don't think that it would be the case here.

Instead, this is the kind of suttas that look more like a general repertoire of all that happens in a sensory experience - yet missing a clear explanation of how the all shebang takes place.
It looks more like putting everything that has been said in a basket , and exposing it after a bumpy ride.

For instance, they don't really explain what the sa-saṅkhāra (one's own coaction), is all about.
See how Sujato omitted the sa- (one's own). Another one!
The sasaṅkhāra can be explained by this extract - with a correct translation of saṅkhāra & sankhata (https://justpaste.it/5p3v9) :
And why, bhikkhus, do you call them coactions?
‘They intend to appropriate,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called coactions.
And what is the appropriation that they intend?
They intend the appropriation of form as their form (viz. form as their self); ...
... (idem for the other khandhas).
‘They intend the appropriation,’ bhikkhus, therefore they are called coactions.

Kiñca, bhikkhave, saṅkhāre vadetha?
Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.
Kiñca saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti?
Rūpaṁ rūpattāya saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharonti, ...
... (idem for the other khandhas).
Saṅkhatamabhisaṅkharontīti kho, bhikkhave, tasmā ‘saṅkhārā’ti vuccati.
SN 22.79/SA 46
So yes, everything seems to be somewhat right (apart from the translation) and the "faculty of pain" - but it is quite useless if someone does not understand how all this fits together.
https://justpaste.it/34tie

I cannot pronounce myself on that "faculty of pain" (dukkhindriya), which does not seem to have a parallel in the Chinese texts - if for a dubious SN 48. 36/SA 485.
In doubt, I would say that the feedback comes from contact in this sutta with no parallel at all (SN 48.40) . Then again - what is exactly that "faculty of pain", if there is not one perfect parallel, to compare it with the Pali definition?

Please auto, do your job on parallels.
.
.
In this world, there are people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
auto
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:58 pm SN 22.79/SA 46
I kept that Sutta in mind when i said,
auto wrote: Mon Dec 06, 2021 3:25 pmsaṅkhāra is what produces conditioned phenomena
The parallel you post shows what you been doing, how you get your meanings and why you so stubborn. In that sense you not much different from user Pulsar who relies on similes in order to know what is meant in the Sutta, and the meaning he gets from simile is directly adopted to what Sutta writes. This is not what abhidhamma and commentaries do, and thus one sees abhidhamma creating new definitions like frankk likes to put it.

SA46 parallel says,
wrote:..The disciple of the Tathagata learns in this subject, thought, action, and consciousness: "I am now fed by the present consciousness, having been fed by it in the past, and am now fed by it in the present. If I have been fed by the present knowledge, and if I am happy with the future knowledge, I will be fed by that knowledge again, now and then. Knowing this, one does not care for the past and does not rejoice in the future, and in the present, one is averse to the present, desires the present, desires the present, and is not increasing, retreating from the present, not advancing, not rising from the present, and not taking the present.
..
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
I can use different Sutta, it has parallel(SA 343)
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.25/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: By oneself one instigates the choice that gives rise to bodily, verbal, and mental action, conditioned by which that pleasure and pain arise in oneself.
Sāmaṁ vā taṁ, ānanda, kāyasaṅkhāraṁ abhisaṅkharoti, yaṁpaccayāssa taṁ uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhadukkhaṁ.
I asked you before how you got the meanings, what method, i think now i have an inkling.

I like this part, the emphasis on what is the meaning of does not increase, it retreats. Might give hint what reverse concentration is.
deepl sa46 wrote:"In what way does it not increase? The color perishes and does not increase, and the awareness of the mind, thought, action, and consciousness perishes and does not increase. In what way does one retreat but not advance? Color retreats but does not advance, and the mind, thought, action, and consciousness retreat but does not advance.

In what does it cease to exist? The color is destroyed and does not come into being, and the mind, thought, action, and consciousness are destroyed and does not come into being. In what does one give up and not take? The color is not taken, and the mind, thought, action, and consciousness are not taken.
and the 'cease to exist' is another instance, it is not part of the instance of fading away, fading away is part of the 'does not increase'
auto
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by auto »

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.236/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: “Mendicants, when there are hands, picking up and putting down are found.
“Hatthesu, bhikkhave, sati ādānanikkhepanaṁ paññāyati;
When there are feet, coming and going are found.
pādesu sati abhikkamapaṭikkamo paññāyati;
When there are joints, contracting and extending are found.
pabbesu sati samiñjanapasāraṇaṁ paññāyati;
When there’s a belly, hunger and thirst are found.
kucchismiṁ sati jighacchā pipāsā paññāyati.

In the same way, when there’s an eye, pleasure and pain arise internally conditioned by eye contact.
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, cakkhusmiṁ sati cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhaṁ dukkhaṁ …pe…
When there’s an ear … nose … tongue … body …
jivhāya sati jivhāsamphassapaccayā uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhaṁ dukkhaṁ …pe…
mind, pleasure and pain arise internally conditioned by mind contact.
manasmiṁ sati manosamphassapaccayā uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhaṁ dukkhaṁ …pe….
..
parallel SA 1166
wrote:Then the World Honored One said to the bhikkhus, "If you have hands, you know how to take and give, if you have feet, you know how to come and go, if you have joints, you know how to flex and extend, if you have a belly, you know how to hunger and thirst. Thus, bhikkhus! If you have eyes, you know that you can feel pain, pleasure, and non-suffering. The same is true of the ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind.
..
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
if there is ignorance then the formations can be found. I would think that one can't actually produce formations but they are found accordingly to the level of ignorance.
ssasny
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ssasny »

Thanks, another good example.

"In the same way, when there’s an eye, pleasure and pain arise internally conditioned by eye contact.
Evameva kho, bhikkhave, cakkhusmiṃ sati cakkhusamphassapaccayā uppajjati ajjhattaṁ sukhaṃ dukkhaṃ"

(using a locative absolute construction)

Literally,
in the same way, Monks, in there being an eye, from the condition of eye-contact / arise/ internally/ pleasure and pain

"Thus, bhikkhus! If you have eyes, you know that you can feel pain, pleasure, and non-suffering. "

i.e. when there is the condition of having an eye, these feelings can arise
auto
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by auto »

ssasny wrote: Wed Dec 08, 2021 4:00 pm .
your welcome
ToVincent
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Re: The proper translation of Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, etc.

Post by ToVincent »

There is nothing in paṭi+i (prati-√ i) - from which paṭicca & paccaya come from - that indicates a meaning, such as "condition".

The Chinese dictionary is even wriggling with the definition - with some sort of absurd: "indirect cause; secondary cause; associated conditions; causal situation, causal condition" (緣)).

You can call it "condition", if you want to.
.
.
In this world, there are people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
Those who desire good are few, and those who desire evil are many.
Buddha
(And you just can't imagine how much goodness, those who desire evil, are ready to display - ToVincent).
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