Lineage

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aag
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Re: Lineage

Post by aag »

May I ask: what do you mean "body of the monks"?

I am also hoping to do a thesis on the concept of "lineage" in Buddhism in the future.

I was checking to see whether the word "vamsa" was indeed and accurate translation for the word "lineage," but it seems from what you are saying, that it is not. Have you been able to definitively rule out the word "vamsa" as lineage?

I think the word that you are looking for is Sanskrit: Gotra and Pali: Gotta.
(Bhikkhu Bodhi advised me that learning both Sanskrit and Pali is important even for translating exclusively Pali texts.)

Maybe check out the word "pravara" too.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/gotra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gotras
https://www.jstor.org/stable/616799
https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-sanskrit-word-KULA-mean-in-English
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-meaning-and-significance-of-Gotra
https://books.google.lk/books?id=QZhtAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&dq=pali+word+for+gotra&source=bl&ots=vCoYsWowHX&sig=ACfU3U3_bL6KkXbRmPiqb-F25gagHVLiaQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiB-72S7LjgAhVHb30KHVs3BBcQ6AEwEnoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=pali%20word%20for%20gotra&f=false
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Screen Shot 2019-02-13 at 7.21.57 PM.png
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The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature by Har Dayal
The Bodhisattva Doctrine in Buddhist Sanskrit Literature by Har Dayal
Last edited by aag on Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Lineage

Post by Dhammanando »

aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:18 pm I was checking to see whether the word "vamsa" was indeed and accurate translation for the word "lineage," but it seem from what you are saying, it is not.
If we're talking about the ordination lineages of bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs, the relevant term is paramparā, which in its approved Vinaya sense (as opposed to its disapproved Sutta sense) first appears in the Parivāra.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
aag
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Re: Lineage

Post by aag »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 3:12 pm
aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:18 pm I was checking to see whether the word "vamsa" was indeed and accurate translation for the word "lineage," but it seem from what you are saying, it is not.
If we're talking about the ordination lineages of bhikkhus and bhikkhunīs, the relevant term is paramparā, which in its approved Vinaya sense (as opposed to its disapproved Sutta sense) first appears in the Parivāra.
What word would be appropriate/suitable if we are talking about the "lineage of Buddhas"?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Lineage

Post by Dhammanando »

aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:16 pm What word would be appropriate/suitable if we are talking about the "lineage of Buddhas"?
Vaṃsa is used for this. A less common term is paveṇi.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
aag
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Re: Lineage

Post by aag »

Dhammanando wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 5:33 pm
aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 4:16 pm What word would be appropriate/suitable if we are talking about the "lineage of Buddhas"?
Vaṃsa is used for this. A less common term is paveṇi.
I know that "vaṃsa" is used in the title of Buddhavaṃsa - a later addition to the canon.

Is this term also used within the Nikayas as well, such as in "DN14 Mahâpadāna Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lineage"? What word for lineage, if any, is used in the Nikayas?

Also, is there a Sanskrit equivalent? Often, the Buddha would define a term that was already popular in North India at the time. I thought that perhaps the Buddha may have redefined the Brahmin term "gotra"? But this was just a guess as I do not have evidence or any knowledge if this so or not.
paul
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Re: Lineage

Post by paul »

aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:18 pm the concept of "lineage" in Buddhism
In Theravada:
"Wander, monks, in what is your proper range, your own ancestral territory. In one who wanders in what is his proper range, his own ancestral territory, Mara gains no opening, Mara gains no foothold. And what, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory? The four frames of reference." SN 47.7, Thanissaro
aag
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Re: Lineage

Post by aag »

paul wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:16 pm
aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:18 pm the concept of "lineage" in Buddhism
own ancestral territory.
Is this word the same or similar to lineage? Do you know the Sanskrit/Pali Pali words for these?
paul
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Re: Lineage

Post by paul »

You will need to consult others about the Pali. My point is not linguistic, but doctrinal. When Hindu customs become Theravada they undergo a radical change, in this case ancestry is a tradition of mindfulness, the sphere becomes the mind. The Buddha adapted previously held customs to suit his own pedagogical purpose.
aag
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Re: Lineage

Post by aag »

paul wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:35 am You will need to consult others about the Pali. My point is not linguistic, but doctrinal. When Hindu customs become Theravada they undergo a radical change, in this case ancestry is a tradition of mindfulness, the sphere becomes the mind. The Buddha adapted previously held customs to suit his own pedagogical purpose.
Oh ok - the reason I was wondering if the word was the same in that case is because I was wondering it is still referring to the concept of lineage which has been adapted.

It's not clear to me if ancestral haunts is talking about re-adapting "lineage" per se, pastures and haunts suggest a "place" where the ancestors (adapted: mind) could roam. I'm not sure what the equivalent of that would be in terms of Hindu customs. If this is also referring to the concept of lineage, I guess it would still be helpful to keep this in mind for future reference, so thank you for that.

I was hoping to figure out what the Sanskrit and Pali word for the English word "lineage" would be as related to the "lineage of Buddhas" specifically as found in the early texts/nikayas, etc. (That is why earlier I was asking if Vamsa could be found in the nikayas or just in the later texts, and also why I was asking you what the Sanskrit/Pali word was in the context that you mentioned.)
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Dhammanando
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Re: Lineage

Post by Dhammanando »

aag wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:17 am Is this word the same or similar to lineage? Do you know the Sanskrit/Pali Pali words for these?
Gocara. Its opposite is agocara. They are sometimes translated as "one's own pastures" (= the four satipaṭṭhānas) and "foreign pastures" (= five kāmaguṇas).
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
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Dhammanando
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Re: Lineage

Post by Dhammanando »

aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:14 pm Is this term also used within the Nikayas as well, such as in "DN14 Mahâpadāna Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lineage"?
I wouldn't myself translate the apadāna in Mahāpadāna as "lineage". An explanatory rendering would be something like "trans-saṃsāric spiritual career". That is, the interval from the moment a being has a life-changing encounter with a Buddha until the moment s/he arrives at either arahantship, solitary buddhahood or perfect buddhahood, is that being's apadāna.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
Pulsar
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Re: Lineage

Post by Pulsar »

Thanks Paul, you wrote In Theravada:
"Wander, monks, in what is your proper range, your own ancestral territory. In one who wanders in what is his proper range, his own ancestral territory, Mara gains no opening, Mara gains no foothold. And what, for a monk, is his proper range, his own ancestral territory? The four frames of reference." SN 47.7, Thanissaro
what a fascinating teaching, I try to memorize this, and do accordingly, but efforts fail, and I try to regain, my lost footing
as long as we allow feelings, recognitions, forces of sankharas to arise incessantly, (abhisankharoti)
unmindfully, we are in bed with mara...
the fault is entirely in our own lack of effort, lack of iddipada,
and of course the seven sets are embedded in
the four frames of reference...
Thanks Ven. Dhammannando and everyone else on the thread, My Saturday
is enriched by this discussion :candle:
aag
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Re: Lineage

Post by aag »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:31 am
aag wrote: Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:14 pm Is this term also used within the Nikayas as well, such as in "DN14 Mahâpadāna Sutta: The Great Discourse on the Lineage"?
I wouldn't myself translate the apadāna in Mahāpadāna as "lineage". An explanatory rendering would be something like "trans-saṃsāric spiritual career". That is, the interval from the moment a being has a life-changing encounter with a Buddha until the moment s/he arrives at either arahantship, solitary buddhahood or perfect buddhahood, is that being's apadāna.
Thank you for the clarification Ven. Dhammanando.

Do you know of any word that is used to refer directly to the "lineage" of seven Buddhas in the Nikayas (as opposed to the to the lineage of 28 Buddhas mentioned in the Buddhavamsa - which in this case, clearly seems to be "Vamsa")? In other words, is vamsa used in the Nikayas as well to refer to the lineage of seven Buddhas?
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Dhammanando
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Re: Lineage

Post by Dhammanando »

aag wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:22 am Do you know of any word that is used to refer directly to the "lineage" of seven Buddhas in the Nikayas
I'm not aware of them ever being referred to by a term that means "lineage". Usually they're just called "the seven Buddhas of this auspicious aeon" or something of that sort.
aag wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:22 am (as opposed to the to the lineage of 28 Buddhas mentioned in the Buddhavamsa - which in this case, clearly seems to be "Vamsa")? In other words, is vamsa used in the Nikayas as well to refer to the lineage of seven Buddhas?
My impression is that the vaṃsa in Buddhavaṃsa doesn't actually mean "lineage". Rather, it seems to mean about the same as "apadāna" as I described it in my earlier post. In the Buddhavaṃsa Pāli, each of the Buddhas has his own buddhavaṃsa, which isn't a lineage but rather is an apadāna-like summation of the decisive events in his spiritual career.
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
aag
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Joined: Wed Feb 13, 2019 1:42 pm

Re: Lineage

Post by aag »

Dhammanando wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:25 pm
aag wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:22 am Do you know of any word that is used to refer directly to the "lineage" of seven Buddhas in the Nikayas
I'm not aware of them ever being referred to by a term that means "lineage". Usually they're just called "the seven Buddhas of this auspicious aeon" or something of that sort.
aag wrote: Sun Feb 17, 2019 5:22 am (as opposed to the to the lineage of 28 Buddhas mentioned in the Buddhavamsa - which in this case, clearly seems to be "Vamsa")? In other words, is vamsa used in the Nikayas as well to refer to the lineage of seven Buddhas?
My impression is that the vaṃsa in Buddhavaṃsa doesn't actually mean "lineage". Rather, it seems to mean about the same as "apadāna" as I described it in my earlier post. In the Buddhavaṃsa Pāli, each of the Buddhas has his own buddhavaṃsa, which isn't a lineage but rather is an apadāna-like summation of the decisive events in his spiritual career.
Thank you very much for that explanation. That seems to help clarify things for me quite a bit!

Regarding: "Usually they're just called "the seven Buddhas of this auspicious aeon" or something of that sort."

Are the seven Buddhas ever sort of collectively referred to as a set with a certain term? Like perhaps a one-word term to refer to the set of seven Buddhas?

Thanks again, Ven. Dhammanando!
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