Tathāgata

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Tathāgata

Post by Kare »

pererin wrote:In his translation and commentary on the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .harv.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), Dr Peter Harvey discusses Tathāgata as follows:
One Who Moves in Reality: Tathāgata is a term for a Buddha. It literally means "Thus-gone" or "Thus-come." What is "thus" is what is real. Translating the term as "One Who Moves in Reality" brings the term alive as referring to person who has awakened to the real nature of things, and experiences things as they really are, most significantly in terms of dukkha, its origination, its cessation, and the way to this.
Any thoughts on this?

Metta
Buddhaghosa discusses the meaning of tathaagata, and shows that this compositum can be resolved in different ways.

Here are some of the options:

1) tathaa (thus) + gata (gone) > thus-gone
2) tathaa (thus) + aagata (come, arrived) > thus-come

These are the usual interpretations. The problem is that they both need some rather fanciful explanations.

3) tatha (reality, truth) + aagata (come, arrived) > the one who has arrived to reality/truth

This alternative, reading tatha (reality, truth), and not tathaa (thus), gives a precise and straightforward description of the Buddha, the Awakened one, the one who has reached or arrived to reality/truth.

Why is this interpretation of Tathaagata never discussed?

Mettaya,
Kåre A. Lie
Mettāya,
Kåre
User avatar
piotr
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Tathāgata

Post by piotr »

Hi,
Kare wrote:Why is this interpretation of Tathaagata never discussed?
I don't know. :smile: I like the explaination that is connected to this passage. How do you feel about this image? :coffee:
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
green
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:25 am

Re: Tathāgata

Post by green »

Here is a further exposition of the meaning of the Tathagatha from the Aganna sutta, DN:


Yassa kho panassa, vāseṭṭha, tathāgate saddhā niviṭṭhā mūlajātā patiṭṭhitā daḷhā asaṃhāriyā samaṇena vā brāhmaṇena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmiṃ, tassetaṃ kallaṃ vacanāya – ‘bhagavatomhi putto oraso mukhato jāto dhammajo dhammanimmito dhammadāyādo’ti. Taṃ kissa hetu? Tathāgatassa hetaṃ, vāseṭṭha, adhivacanaṃ ‘dhammakāyo’ itipi, ‘brahmakāyo’ itipi, ‘dhammabhūto’ itipi, ‘brahmabhūto’ itipi.

2] He whose faith in the
Tathágata is settled, rooted, established, solid, unshakable by any ascetic or Brahmin, any
deva or mara or Brahma or anyone in the world, can truly say: "I am a true son of the
Blessed Lord, born of his mouth, born of Dhamma, created by Dhamma, an heir of
Dhamma." Why is that? Because, Vasettha, this designates the Tathágata: "The Body of Dhamma," that is "The Body of Brahma," [3] or "Become Dhamma," that is "Become
Brahma." [4]

----

I just have one problem with the translation, what is "bhuto" in Buddhism? Does it mean to become?
User avatar
Kare
Posts: 766
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:58 am
Location: Norway
Contact:

Re: Tathāgata

Post by Kare »

green wrote:Here is a further exposition of the meaning of the Tathagatha from the Aganna sutta, DN:


Yassa kho panassa, vāseṭṭha, tathāgate saddhā niviṭṭhā mūlajātā patiṭṭhitā daḷhā asaṃhāriyā samaṇena vā brāhmaṇena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmiṃ, tassetaṃ kallaṃ vacanāya – ‘bhagavatomhi putto oraso mukhato jāto dhammajo dhammanimmito dhammadāyādo’ti. Taṃ kissa hetu? Tathāgatassa hetaṃ, vāseṭṭha, adhivacanaṃ ‘dhammakāyo’ itipi, ‘brahmakāyo’ itipi, ‘dhammabhūto’ itipi, ‘brahmabhūto’ itipi.

2] He whose faith in the
Tathágata is settled, rooted, established, solid, unshakable by any ascetic or Brahmin, any
deva or mara or Brahma or anyone in the world, can truly say: "I am a true son of the
Blessed Lord, born of his mouth, born of Dhamma, created by Dhamma, an heir of
Dhamma." Why is that? Because, Vasettha, this designates the Tathágata: "The Body of Dhamma," that is "The Body of Brahma," [3] or "Become Dhamma," that is "Become
Brahma." [4]

----

I just have one problem with the translation, what is "bhuto" in Buddhism? Does it mean to become?
Yes. Bhūto is perf.part. of bhavati, "(has) become".

This text is interesting, but it does not say anything about the meaning of tathāgata.
Mettāya,
Kåre
green
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:25 am

Re: Tathāgata

Post by green »

Kare wrote:
green wrote:Here is a further exposition of the meaning of the Tathagatha from the Aganna sutta, DN:


Yassa kho panassa, vāseṭṭha, tathāgate saddhā niviṭṭhā mūlajātā patiṭṭhitā daḷhā asaṃhāriyā samaṇena vā brāhmaṇena vā devena vā mārena vā brahmunā vā kenaci vā lokasmiṃ, tassetaṃ kallaṃ vacanāya – ‘bhagavatomhi putto oraso mukhato jāto dhammajo dhammanimmito dhammadāyādo’ti. Taṃ kissa hetu? Tathāgatassa hetaṃ, vāseṭṭha, adhivacanaṃ ‘dhammakāyo’ itipi, ‘brahmakāyo’ itipi, ‘dhammabhūto’ itipi, ‘brahmabhūto’ itipi.

2] He whose faith in the
Tathágata is settled, rooted, established, solid, unshakable by any ascetic or Brahmin, any
deva or mara or Brahma or anyone in the world, can truly say: "I am a true son of the
Blessed Lord, born of his mouth, born of Dhamma, created by Dhamma, an heir of
Dhamma." Why is that? Because, Vasettha, this designates the Tathágata: "The Body of Dhamma," that is "The Body of Brahma," [3] or "Become Dhamma," that is "Become
Brahma." [4]

----

I just have one problem with the translation, what is "bhuto" in Buddhism? Does it mean to become?
Yes. Bhūto is perf.part. of bhavati, "(has) become".

This text is interesting, but it does not say anything about the meaning of tathāgata.
Thank you for the clarification.

Again, this gives a clearer meaning of the term "Tatagatha" -- that it is designated as "Body of Brahma", "Body of the Law", "become Brahma" and "become the Law".

An alternate translation :
"Tathāgatassa h'etam Vasettha adivacanam Dhammakayo iti pi ...":
O Vasettha! The Word of Dhammakaya is indeed the name of the Tathagata

Tath-agatha = become Brahma
Tath-agatha = become the law

http://www.purifymind.com/GlossaryN.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ( here is a little combination of Theravada and Mahayana) :anjali:
True Suchness ... Bhutatathata in Sanskrit word. Bhuta means substance that exists; tathata means suchness, thusness, i.e. such is its nature. It is regarded as the absolute, ultimate source and character of all phenomena. It is the eternal, imperson, unchangeable reality behind all phenomena. Simply speaking, it is ALL... There are many other terms to describe it, e.g. Buddha-nature, Self-nature Pure Mind, Dharmakaya (Dharma Body), Tathagata-garbha (Buddha-treasury), Reality (real mark), Dharma Realm, Dharma Nature, the Complete and Perfect real nature, etc.
green
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:25 am

Re: Tathāgata

Post by green »

pererin wrote:In his translation and commentary on the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta (see http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .harv.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;), Dr Peter Harvey discusses Tathāgata as follows:
One Who Moves in Reality: Tathāgata is a term for a Buddha. It literally means "Thus-gone" or "Thus-come." What is "thus" is what is real. Translating the term as "One Who Moves in Reality" brings the term alive as referring to person who has awakened to the real nature of things, and experiences things as they really are, most significantly in terms of dukkha, its origination, its cessation, and the way to this.
Any thoughts on this?

Metta
That seems to be saying the same thing as Buddha "turning the wheel of the Dhamma"...the or dhammachakapavatan.

The Dhammachaka is the entire 4 Noble Truths (12 spoke wheel as opposed to the eightspoked wheel which is commonly shown).

This Dhammachakka is also called Brahma chakra - or the wheel of creation.
So the entire 4 Noble Truths is the wheel of creation which Buddha moves...without the dhamma -- Buddha warns -- will be crushed by the wheel if any priest or contemplative dares to try to stop it.



§ 112. {Iti 4.13; Iti 121}
"The world has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. From the world, the Tathagata is disjoined. The origination of the world has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. The origination of the world has, by the Tathagata, been abandoned. The cessation of the world has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. The cessation of the world has, by the Tathagata, been realized. The path leading to the cessation of the world has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. The path leading to the cessation of the world has, by the Tathagata, been developed.

"Whatever in this world — with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations complete with contemplatives & priests, princes & men — is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect, that has been fully awakened to by the Tathagata. Thus he is called the Tathagata.

"From the night the Tathagata fully awakens to the unsurpassed Right Self-awakening to the night he is totally unbound in the Unbinding property with no fuel remaining, whatever the Tathagata has said, spoken, explained is just so (tatha) and not otherwise. Thus he is called the Tathagata.

"The Tathagata is one who does in line with (tathaa) what he teaches, one who teaches in line with what he does. Thus he is called the Tathagata.

"In this world with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, its generations complete with contemplatives & priests, princes & men, the Tathagata is the unconquered conqueror, all-seeing, the wielder of power. Thus he is called the Tathagata."


THE DHAMMA WHEEL:

And when the Blessed One had set the Wheel of Dhamma in motion, the earth devas cried out: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by priest or contemplative, deva, Mara or God or anyone in the cosmos." On hearing the earth devas' cry, the devas of the Four Kings' Heaven took up the cry... the devas of the Thirty-three... the Yama devas... the Tusita devas... the Nimmanarati devas... the Paranimmita-vasavatti devas... the devas of Brahma's retinue took up the cry: "At Varanasi, in the Game Refuge at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by priest or contemplative, deva, Mara, or God or anyone at all in the cosmos."
So in that moment, that instant, the cry shot right up to the Brahma worlds. And this ten-thousand fold cosmos shivered & quivered & quaked, while a great, measureless radiance appeared in the cosmos, surpassing the effulgence of the devas.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 5701
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Tathāgata

Post by Dhammanando »

green wrote:There are many other terms to describe it, e.g. Buddha-nature, Self-nature Pure Mind, Dharmakaya (Dharma Body), Tathagata-garbha (Buddha-treasury), Reality (real mark), Dharma Realm, Dharma Nature, the Complete and Perfect real nature, etc.
In the Classical Forum please limit discussion to Theravadin terms and sources.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Svākkhātaṃ brahmacariyaṃ, sandiṭṭhikam’akālikaṃ,
Yattha amoghā pabbajjā, appamattassa sikkhato.


“The holy life is well proclaimed,
directly visible, immediate,
Where not in vain is the going forth
of one who trains heedfully.”
— Sela Sutta
green
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:25 am

Re: Tathāgata

Post by green »

Dhammanando wrote:
green wrote:There are many other terms to describe it, e.g. Buddha-nature, Self-nature Pure Mind, Dharmakaya (Dharma Body), Tathagata-garbha (Buddha-treasury), Reality (real mark), Dharma Realm, Dharma Nature, the Complete and Perfect real nature, etc.
In the Classical Forum please limit discussion to Theravadin terms and sources.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Sorry, most of what I write is in the general discussion -- I didn't realize this was classical Theravada.
:anjali:
Post Reply