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Vinaya 3.60

Posted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 10:14 am
by Coyote
I get the pariyatti daily words in my inbox every day, and usually I just read the English. However I though it might be a good idea to actually start reading the Pali. In today's passage there is one part that I do not understand. Can anyone help me understand this construction:

Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā,
tesaṃ hetuṃ Tathāgato āha
tesañca yo nirodho;
evaṃvādī Mahāsamaṇo.

I have no problem with the first relative construction starting ye and being taken up by tesaṃ. However I am not sure I understand the second. This translation given is:

Those phenomena arising from a cause,
of these the Enlightened One has told the cause
and also their cessation;
this is the "doctrine" of the Great Recluse.

I'm not sure what the function of the second relative pronoun is and why nirodho is not in the accusative as hetu is, given that it seems to be a mirror of the second line.

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Posted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:55 am
by schakma94
The translation is good. The first line tells about the dhammas. Notice that dhammas are in plural.
Second line tells about their cause for origination and this cause is used in singular form.
Now the third line tells again about the cessation of those dhammas. To indicate those dhammas mentioned in the first line, here "tesanca" is used. I think it's fairly simple as that.

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Posted: Sat Jul 16, 2016 6:31 pm
by srkris
I asked a friend - and this is what he says (see comments)
https://www.facebook.com/groups/palistu ... 824744632/

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:02 pm
by Coyote
Thanks so much! 'That which is thier cessation' makes much more sense of the relative clause. :anjali:

Re: Vinaya 3.60

Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:16 am
by papercrane1
I've found that the English words "as for" and "which/who" can be very useful when translating Pāli relative pronouns like yo, ye, yā, yaṃ, yesaṃ, etc.

For instance:
Ye dhammā hetuppabhavā,
tesaṃ hetuṃ Tathāgato āha
tesañca yo nirodho;
evaṃvādī Mahāsamaṇo.

"As for dhammas which are produced from a cause:
The Tathāgata has spoken of their cause.
And as for their cessation:
The Great Recluse is a preacher of such."
Or at SN 23.2:
Rūpe kho, rādha, yo chando yo rāgo nandī taṇhā, tatra satto, tatra visatto, tasmā sattoti vuccati.
"O Rādha, as for desire, passion, delight, and craving in relation to form: stuck therein, tightly stuck therein, one is therefore called 'a being.'"
Or at SN 22.29:
Yo, bhikkhave, rūpaṃ abhinandati, dukkhaṃ so abhinandati. Yo dukkhaṃ abhinandati, aparimutto so dukkhasmāti vadāmi.
"O monks, as for one who delights in form: he delights in suffering. As for one who delights in suffering: 'He is not released from suffering,' I say!"