Is learning pali really helpful?

[lostitude]

Hello,

I've been toying with the idea of learning pali, but according to an earlier exchange of this forum, it seems that even people well-versed in pali do not always agree on the meaning of certain terms.
So I'm wondering what kind of advantage learning pali gives us, if at the end of the day we understand the small not-so-important words in the sentences, but not the keywords themselves whose meaning is debated?
In other words, does an intermediate level in Pali (ie. reasonable knowledge of grammar and vocab, but no deep knowledge of etymology and diachronic evolution of Indian languages) really help better understand the suttas, in comparison with just reading the English translations?

Thanks, and apologies if a similar discussion has already been started (I have not found it).

[JamesTheGiant]

Depends if you want to argue, or simply practise the Eightfold Path.
If you want to practise, the various translations we have now are fine. No need to learn Pali.

[lostitude]

So th debates about the meaning of nimitta and the like are purely scholarly and have no incidence on practice or right view?
If the answer is yes then indeed maybe pali is not such a good investment...

[Volo]

It's like with everything: be it speaking French, or knowing some computer programming or being able to cook lasagna: if you know how, you use it, if not, you can also go without. But I would say that even a basic knowledge of Pali would bring your confidence of working with the texts on a different level.

[Assaji]

Hello,

I've been toying with the idea of learning pali, but according to an earlier exchange of this forum, it seems that even people well-versed in pali do not always agree on the meaning of certain terms.

The key reason why Buddha's teaching is hard to apply nowadays is 'semantic shift' - the meaning of Pali terms has evolved over the centuries. So we have well-preserved texts, but modern interpretation of terms in these texts differs from interpretation in Buddha's lifetime.

Even the best modern translators often give tentative translations of key terms, - especially when they try to find a single English word which should reflect all the nuances of original Pali term.

So I'm wondering what kind of advantage learning pali gives us, if at the end of the day we understand the small not-so-important words in the sentences, but not the keywords themselves whose meaning is debated?
In other words, does an intermediate level in Pali (ie. reasonable knowledge of grammar and vocab, but no deep knowledge of etymology and diachronic evolution of Indian languages) really help better understand the suttas, in comparison with just reading the English translations?

Intermediate knowledge of grammar and vocab won't help much, since you'll just learn the modern interpretation of Pali terms.

What does really help? It's the ability to reverse the semantic shift and reconstruct the original meanings of Pali terms.

Translations can give a cursory understanding of suttas, but intricacies of meditative practice are often lost in translation. Work on Pali terms gives you a chance to apply Buddha's words as they were meant to be.

[Assaji]

So th debates about the meaning of nimitta and the like are purely scholarly and have no incidence on practice or right view?
If the answer is yes then indeed maybe pali is not such a good investment...

Thanks to research of the term 'nimitta' I've been able to apply in practice the Buddha's instructions with this term, - Suda sutta, Gavi sutta, etc. These instructions are amazingly powerful.

[DooDoot]

I've been toying with the idea of learning pali

I would like to learn Pali but obviously i don't regard it as urgent enough to overcome my natural difficulties when it comes to learning grammar. I have had short spurts at learning the grammar rules and translating portions of text but I quickly forget what I learned. It simply does not come naturally to me (where as remembering suttas or discerning meaning or applying logic comes very easily for me).

but according to an earlier exchange of this forum, it seems that even people well-versed in pali do not always agree on the meaning of certain terms.

Yes. Also, translations by the various translators often differ.

... we understand the small not-so-important words in the sentences, but not the keywords themselves whose meaning is debated?

Indeed. The above has been accurately expressed.

In other words, does an intermediate level in Pali (ie. reasonable knowledge of grammar and vocab, but no deep knowledge of etymology and diachronic evolution of Indian languages) really help better understand the suttas, in comparison with just reading the English translations?

Personally, over the years, I have picked up the meaning of Pali words in ordinary study of reading ordinary books and listening to ordinary teachings. However, since the creation of Sutta Central, with its excellent search function & with its English-Pali function (available on Sujato translations), what I have discovered to be the most valuable thing ever, for study, is researching how words are used in context. While certain words are unambiguously defined in the suttas (for example, the word "satta" or "a being" in SN 23.2 and SN 5.10), many words that are not explicitly defined can be better understood in their contextual usages because often certain contextual uses are unambiguous. To end, I have found this to be the most beneficial thing. I find the Pali dictionaries to be terrible when it comes to subtlety & insight.

Take for example the word "jayati', which is found in the following phase, which was spoken by the Buddha-To-Be in SN 12.10, a deva in AN 4.45 and a Brahma god in MN 49 and which is generally held to mean reincarnation or physical birth:

“Mendicants, before my awakening—when I was still unawakened but intent on awakening—I thought:

“Pubbeva me, bhikkhave, sambodhā anabhisambuddhassa bodhisattasseva sato etadahosi:

‘Alas, this world has fallen into trouble. It’s born, grows old, dies, passes away, and is reborn,

‘kicchaṃ vatāyaṃ loko āpanno jāyati ca jīyati ca mīyati ca cavati ca upapajjati ca.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.10/en/sujato

Now, the meaning of 'jayati' above I regard to be ambiguous. However, if a search is done on Sutta Central for 'jayati', the following suttas are the first found:

“Mendicants, there are these three sources that give rise to deeds.

“Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, nidānāni kammānaṃ samudayāya.

What three?

Katamāni tīṇi?

Desire comes up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.

Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati;

https://suttacentral.net/an3.112/en/sujato

“Mendicants, these four things are born of love and hate.
“Cattārimāni, bhikkhave, pemāni jāyanti.

What four?
Katamāni cattāri?

Love is born of love,
hate is born of love,
love is born of hate, and
hate is born of hate.
Pemā pemaṃ jāyati, pemā doso jāyati, dosā pemaṃ jāyati, dosā doso jāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.200/en/sujato

Feeling inspired, joy springs up.
Tassa atthapaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati.

Being joyful, rapture springs up.
Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.26/en/sujato

So when examining Pali words like this, a broader & possibly more accurate meaning can be found.

This is why experts in Pali grammar can disagree on the meaning of text and why understanding the small not-so-important words in the sentences occurs but not the keywords themselves whose meaning is debated. A word such as "jāyati" may have some kind of general meaning of "coming forth" or "being born" but whether the meaning is physical or mental is subject to debate. Thus, while I have not examined every sutta with the word 'jayati', i would guess a context where it is used unambiguously physically will not be found because its predominant unambiguous usage is mental.

[DooDoot]

Also, on a more basic matter, as I previously mentioned, fettering out Pali texts first requires some understanding of basic Pali words, which are naturally picked up with general study.

For example, in the text below, the basic words we should identify with basic study are 'samudayāya" (arising; origin); "kamma" and even "nidana" ("causal condition"). By being able to identify these words allows us to slowly but surely negotiate through the Pali text.

Similarly, words such as "chanda" and "rāga" most students eventually get to know.

“Mendicants, there are these three sources that give rise to deeds.

“Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, nidānāni kammānaṃ samudayāya.

What three?

Katamāni tīṇi?

Desire comes up for things that stimulate desire and greed in the past, future, or present.

Atīte, bhikkhave, chandarāgaṭṭhāniye dhamme ārabbha chando jāyati;

https://suttacentral.net/an3.112/en/sujato

Similarly, below, words such as "piti" are well-known. Thus we can work around this word and destructure the other text if necessary.

Feeling inspired, joy springs up.
Tassa atthapaṭisaṃvedino dhammapaṭisaṃvedino pāmojjaṃ jāyati.

Being joyful, rapture springs up.
Pamuditassa pīti jāyati.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.26/en/sujato

I suppose what I am saying is I have never learned Pali but I have picked up enough that allows me to explore & verify the texts when I need to.

[SarathW]

Hello,

I've been toying with the idea of learning pali, but according to an earlier exchange of this forum, it seems that even people well-versed in pali do not always agree on the meaning of certain terms.
So I'm wondering what kind of advantage learning pali gives us, if at the end of the day we understand the small not-so-important words in the sentences, but not the keywords themselves whose meaning is debated?
In other words, does an intermediate level in Pali (ie. reasonable knowledge of grammar and vocab, but no deep knowledge of etymology and diachronic evolution of Indian languages) really help better understand the suttas, in comparison with just reading the English translations?

Thanks, and apologies if a similar discussion has already been started (I have not found it).

I would say yes.
It will give you the winning edge.
This question is similar to whether you should learn Abhidhamma.
My answer to this also "yes. if you learn Abhidhamma it gives you the winning edge"

[DooDoot]

the winning edge.

I would have no hesitation debating Bhikkhu Bodhi on core Dhamma topics despite being basically illiterate in Pali. I think Lostitude has identified the limitations of learning Pali, namely, it does not provide for the real meaning of words & texts being understood. However, if learning grammar comes easy to you then, yes, do it.

[Polar Bear]

I have a safe-bet argument for learning Pali (akin to the safe-bet kamma & rebirth teaching).

If you learn Pali, you might improve your practice thereby.
If you don’t learn Pali you might miss out on some practical benefits.
If you learn Pali and don’t improve your practice, you will still have spent time entertaining and honing the intellect which is better than spending that time watching tv or doing something else frivolous.
Therefore, if you have the time to kill, you might as well learn Pali.

I suppose you could argue there’s a possibility that learning Pali could detract from practice and plunge you into over intellectualization, but it wouldn’t necessarily and I think that the probability of learning Pali either improving or doing nothing for your practice is greater than the probability of it detracting from your practice.

So I say go for it. You can always quit if you feel so inclined.

[apophenia]

If you learn Pali, you might improve your practice thereby.
If you don’t learn Pali you might miss out on some practical benefits.
If you learn Pali and don’t improve your practice, you will still have spent time entertaining and honing the intellect which is better than spending that time watching tv or doing something else frivolous.
Therefore, if you have the time to kill, you might as well learn Pali.

My reasoning went along those lines. I like demanding intellectual hobbies, and I like learning languages. I've long toyed with the idea of getting back into ancient Greek and Latin, languages I studies in high school. I spent most of my summer holiday learning Romanian. Afterwards I decided that since apparently learning languages gives me so much pleasure - even without ever actually using the language - I might as well learn Pali. Will this be helpful in my practice? I don't know. It will be entertaining, and it will definitely help with chanting, which I also like, and which I do find helpful for practice.

[Sam Vara]

I have a safe-bet argument for learning Pali (akin to the safe-bet kamma & rebirth teaching).

If you learn Pali, you might improve your practice thereby.
If you don’t learn Pali you might miss out on some practical benefits.
If you learn Pali and don’t improve your practice, you will still have spent time entertaining and honing the intellect which is better than spending that time watching tv or doing something else frivolous.
Therefore, if you have the time to kill, you might as well learn Pali.

I suppose you could argue there’s a possibility that learning Pali could detract from practice and plunge you into over intellectualization, but it wouldn’t necessarily and I think that the probability of learning Pali either improving or doing nothing for your practice is greater than the probability of it detracting from your practice.

So I say go for it. You can always quit if you feel so inclined.

Good post. I try to learn a little every day. I have the leisure time to do this, and although I'm not particularly good at languages I do gain a little bit of insight and it is also fascinating to watch how the mind works when faced with challenges. I have certainly had to be patient with my mind, as when you get older it gets progressively harder to retain information. I have a tendency to push hard at things, so it is a good discipline and a valuable insight to be faced with impatience when that impatience doesn't actually help in achieving anything. I'm ploughing a very slow furrow through Warder, and he said that the first 17 chapters should be pushed through quickly; about a term for undergraduates on an Oriental Languages degree. Well, it's taken me three years, and I'm glad to have made it that far!

When discussing learning Pali with my teacher, I said I hoped it would help me discover what the Buddha really meant. He laughed, and said that although it would be a wholesome thing to do, I would be swapping the prejudices and conditioning of one translator for those of another: myself! This has proven to be extremely prescient advice. One thing I have noticed is how many preconceptions and apparent wishful thinking gets added to English translations where there seems to be no obvious reason based on the bare Pali. That, in turn, helps me to be tolerant of how other people think about Dhamma. Words and thinking may be all we have, but they never really get to the bottom of things...

[Spiny Norman]

I said I hoped it would help me discover what the Buddha really meant. He laughed, and said that although it would be a wholesome thing to do, I would be swapping the prejudices and conditioning of one translator for those of another: myself!

Indeed, and we need to be aware of our own biases and preferences when examining language and meaning.

[Zom]

Indeed, and we need to be aware of our own biases and preferences when examining language and meaning.

+1

Some think learning Pali is enough to justify their biases .)