Pali Term: Vossagga

[Assaji]

Hello Pāli friends,

The Pāli term "vossagga" has several meanings.
The expression "vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā" is quite tricky, and worth a discussion.

...
... "vossagga" in SN 48.10 has a very different meaning from "relaxation".
One makes "vossagga" the basis (ārammaṇa) of meditative composure.

Hi Assaji, could you expand in detail exactly how you understand that to mean? B. Bodhi's and Thanissaro's translation of that are somewhat ambiguous.

Two general categories of interpretation:
1) one uses vossagga as a means to attain samadhi
2) one attains samadhi, for the purpose attaining vossagga.

I take it to mean, (SN 48.9 samadhi indriya def. of "vossaggarammam karitva"),
the 2nd meaning. That one is attaining samadhi, for the sole purpose of attaining vossagga, here being a synonym of nirvana.
In the standard 7sb formula,
viveka nissitam, viraga nissitgam, nirodha nissitam, vossaga parinamim.

Vossaga, synonym for nirvana in that 7sb refrain.
Whenever you see the pattern viraga, nirodha, <x>, in the suttas, you can practically guarantee the next word in the series is referring to nirvana.

Venerable Bodhi also writes about Nibbāṇa:

https://books.google.com/books?id=MEA6A ... &pg=PA1930

and I agree with him.

In my opinion, the meaning is "having made Nibbāna the basis (ārammaṇa)."

Do you agree with the Patis. interpretation then?
That it's insight preceding samatha?

It sounds feasible.

So "having made nibbana the basis" means you're already a noble disciple, and then the samadhi indriya you exercise is that of of a noble one?

Probably, especially if one takes in account AN I 36, mentioned by Venerable Bodhi in the aforementioned footnote:

344

… Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, appakā te sattā ye vavassaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhanti samādhiṃ labhanti cittassekaggataṃ; atha kho eteva sattā bahutarā ye vavassaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā na labhanti samādhiṃ na labhanti cittassekaggataṃ.

(345) "...so too those beings are few who gain concentration, one-pointedness of mind, based on release; more numerous are those who do not gain concentration, one-pointedness of mind, based on release."

All 5 of the indriya actually explicitly state 'here, an ariya-savako (noble disciple) does....', but the expression ariya-savako itself is also ambiguous. It can mean a disciple that has attained at least stream entry, or it can mean, as B. Thanissaro usually translates, "disciple of a Noble one."

It's rather a noble disciple:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31703

The big question still, in plain English, how do you actually understand the instructions should be carried out by the average practitioner for samadhi indriya?

Simplification of the meaning is the key trap which leads to unhealthy semantic shift and loss of original meaning, for example, in Sujato's translations.

Nowadays the average practitioner is misguided, and his chances to develop samadhi are low. In the Buddha's time, the pure Dhamma was easily available, and made stream-entry possible for many.

I take the simplest interpretation, which is that one is striving to attain a quality of samadhi that is capable of realizing nirvana, because that's the only interpretation that makes sense to me. If one already had realized nirvana, they already had a samadhi that was capable of realizing nirvana, so what sense is it telling them to do it in that order? (first make nirvana as the basis, then afterwards go into samadhi)?

I take the description here to be rather descriptive, instead of instructive. The instructions for attaining samadhi are quite different -- the Anapanasati Sutta, the Satipatthana Sutta, etc.

I guess it also makes sense to say one should be striving to attain a quality of samadhi that can be equal to a disciple who is already awakened who then enters into a samadhi that has nirvana as a basis, but that's a little convoluted and unnecessary isn't it?

For stream-enterers who have a glimpse of Nibbāṇa, making it a basis of samadhi works very well.

To clarify vossagga (release), there is no controversy between EBT, commentaries and Abhidhamma period , correct? Everyone takes vossasgga/release to mean a synonym of nirvana correct? Ajahn Brahm is the only dissenter?

The Commentary offers the earliest available explanation of "vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā" known to me. Moving beyond the earliest available explanations is pretty much guesswork. Such conjectures are quite popular nowadays. It's rather those who strictly follow the textual evidence who become dissenters.

[Volo]

Thanks, Assaji. Interesting. Vossagga is also used referring to N8P, for example:

“When this was said, great king, I told the bhikkhu Ānanda: ‘Not so, Ānanda! Not so, Ānanda! This is the entire holy life, Ānanda, that is, good friendship, [88] good companionship, good comradeship. When a bhikkhu has a good friend, a good companion, a good comrade, it is to be expected that he will develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path.

And how, Ānanda, does a bhikkhu who has a good friend, a good companion, a good comrade, develop and cultivate the Noble Eightfold Path? Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu develops right view, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. He develops right intention … right speech … right action … right livelihood … right effort … right mindfulness … right concentration, which is based upon seclusion, dispassion, and cessation, maturing in release. It is in this way, Ānanda, that a bhikkhu who has a good friend, a good companion, a good comrade, develops and cultivates the Noble Eightfold Path.

idhānanda, bhikkhu sammādiṭṭhiṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ, sammāsaṅkappaṃ bhāveti...pe.... sammāvācaṃ bhāveti...pe.... sammākammantaṃ bhāveti...pe.... sammāājīvaṃ bhāveti...pe.... sammāvāyāmaṃ bhāveti...pe.... sammāsatiṃ bhāveti...pe.... sammāsamādhiṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ.

Imo it's clear, that vossagga is used here as a synonym for Nibbana.

[DooDoot]

Imo it's clear, that vossagga is used here as a synonym for Nibbana.

The verse appears to refer to the path based upon/caused by seclusion, dispassion and cessation, maturing in release. Just as the path appears dependent on 'small' (but not final) dispassion and cessation; so would their maturity be a 'small nibbana' or 'taste of nibbana'.

Venerable Bodhi also writes about Nibbāṇa: and I agree with him.

In my opinion, the meaning is "having made Nibbāna the basis (ārammaṇa).

Simplification of the meaning is the key trap which leads to unhealthy semantic shift and loss of original meaning, for example, in Sujato's translations.

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation appears exaggerated and Bhikkhu Sujato's sounds fine, as follows:

It’s when a noble disciple, relying on letting go, gains immersion, gains unification of mind.
Idha, bhikkhave, ariyasāvako vossaggārammaṇaṃ karitvā labhati samādhiṃ, labhati cittassa ekaggataṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/sn48.10/en/sujato

If the Buddha meant to say 'Nibbāna', I think the Buddha would have used the word Nibbāna. But the Buddha used the word 'vossagga'.

Nowadays the average practitioner is misguided, and his chances to develop samadhi are low.

I doubt Ajahn Brahm & Sujato are average samadhi practitioners (despite their teaching of Australian Brahmicism to puthujjana) while is it widely regarded via his self-admission that Bhikkhu Bodhi is average.

In the Buddha's time, the pure Dhamma was easily available, and made stream-entry possible for many.

Since a certain one person (ekapuggalo) has been basically exclusively teaching vossagga-samadhi on the internet for many years, the Dhamma has remained easily available.

I take the description here to be rather descriptive, instead of instructive. The instructions for attaining samadhi are quite different -- the Anapanasati Sutta, the Satipatthana Sutta, etc.

The word 'mindfulness' in Satipatthana always means to recollect samapajjana or right view, which is the right view to abandon craving or let go. It follows the instruction in SN 48.10 is not different to the instruction in MN 118, which is why "vossagga" is mentioned near the conclusion of MN 118. Despite linguistic studies of Pali, the average Pali adept is misguided. They haven't yet figured out the meaning and haven't yet figured out the difference between & the place of 'anupassi' and 'sati' . This said, the average Pali adept makes merit when they teach Pali grammar to Noble Ones because a Noble One uses knowledge of Pali for the right beneficial purpose.

For stream-enterers who have a glimpse of Nibbāṇa, making it a basis of samadhi works very well.

Yes. This "glimse of Nibbana" is why "vossagga" is not the big Nibbana but just a small nibbana, called 'letting go'. While it is real nibbana, it is not the big Nibbana. Ajahn Buddhadasa used to also teach to make nibbana the meditation object. But it might be confusing if it is believed small nibbana is big Nibbana because big Nibbana obviously cannot occur before the development of the 1st jhana.

Kind regards

[frank k]

Hi Assaji, thanks for that detailed explanation. Makes sense. 'Noble disciple' is definitely what it is according to the commentaries as you point out in the other thread, but as you know, sometimes commentaries, subcommentaries, and EBT don't all agree so we still have to end up making a personal choice when interpreting. I'm very suspicious about the 'noble disciple', because of how Te Abhidhamma segregates the Vb 12 jhana into 'sutta method', and the 'abhidhamma method' (under jhana section) is supposedly only for supramundane jhana. If you are to believe the commentaries, then the conclusion you would have to come to is that the Buddha was too terse and incomplete in the suttas, and you have to rely on the integrity and honesty of Buddhaghosa and the commentaries to give you the truth, to properly understand the EBT. Vism. already has a poor track record, I'm not trusting them with anything that is potentially or definitely contradicting a simpler EBT reading.

If you trust the commentary interpretation of 7sb awakening factors, then they become just something that one reckons with AFTER one has already become an ariya, rather than the most important instructions on meditation (SN 46.3) that should be on our mind all time.

So while searching for simplicity can lead to problems as you point out, not doing so, becoming blind faith Vism. followers like many Theravadans are, leads to IMO much bigger problems.

It's rather a noble disciple:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=31703

The big question still, in plain English, how do you actually understand the instructions should be carried out by the average practitioner for samadhi indriya?

Simplification of the meaning is the key trap which leads to unhealthy semantic shift and loss of original meaning, for example, in Sujato's translations.

...

[DooDoot]

I'm very suspicious about the 'noble disciple'

Yes. The Buddha said a puthujjana has the fetter of doubt or skepticism.

If you trust the commentary interpretation of 7sb awakening factors, then they become just something that one reckons with AFTER one has already become an ariya, rather than the most important instructions on meditation (SN 46.3) that should be on our mind all time.

The 7sb are most importantly described at the end of MN 118.

[Volo]

The verse appears to refer to the path based upon/caused by seclusion, dispassion and cessation, maturing in release. Just as the path appears dependent on 'small' (but not final) dispassion and cessation; so would their maturity be a 'small nibbana' or 'taste of nibbana'.

Do you mean that the N8P Buddha is talking in the quoted sutta is not the N8P which leads to the final Nibbana?

Since a certain one person (ekapuggalo) has been basically exclusively teaching vossagga-samadhi on the internet for many years, the Dhamma has remained easily available.

There is no jhāna without letting go. But I don't understand, why do you make it a some kind of exclusive feature of Ajahn Brahm's approach unknown to the other teachers. The main thing for attaining jhāna is letting go of 5 hindrances, and I don't think there is a teacher who teaches jhāna (of any kind) and doesn't teach this. And Buddha is talking about this much more often than about making vossagga the basis.

May be you can clarify what do you (or Ajahn Brahm) mean by "letting go". The way I understand letting go, it cannot be really practiced, but occurs naturally, when the conditions are met. Therefore "let go" is more a goal than a practical instruction. Or do you think Ajahn Brahm was reading the suttas and all of a sudden realized "Oh, I need to make letting go the basis!" Did it, and attained jhāna? Or is it rather that he first attained jhāna (thanks mainly to his previous paramis due to which letting go occured naturally for him) and then came across this passage and thought it would nicely support the way he likes to formulate these things?

[DooDoot]

Do you mean that the N8P Buddha is talking in the quoted sutta is not the N8P which leads to the final Nibbana?

What i said here is, what is "maturing in release" is "seclusion, dispassion and cessation" .

However, you possibly disputed this, here: viewtopic.php?t=35354#p528746

I think it is the vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ & nirodhanissitaṃ (rather than the satisambojjhaṅgaṃ) that ripen as vossagga. How can we determine whether my view about this is true or false?

nissitaṃ (which is past participle) and pariṇāmiṃ (again one of those -in ending words pariṇāmin) are all in Accusative Sg, same as satisambojjhaṅgaṃ, therefore it's logical to say that this is the word they characterize.

[DooDoot]

But I don't understand, why do you make it a some kind of exclusive feature of Ajahn Brahm's approach unknown to the other teachers.

I did not refer to Ajahn Brahm. Ajahn Brahm does not post in the internet.

The main thing for attaining jhāna is letting go of 5 hindrances

We are not referring to the above as letting go. Eradicating the five hindrances does not involve "letting go". Eradicating the five hindrances involves wisdom.

I don't think there is a teacher who teaches jhāna (of any kind) and doesn't teach this.

Dropping the five hindrances won't necessarily reach jhana. If the mind concentrates wrongly, progress will be blocked. Things occur, such as losing awareness of the breath when it calms because the mind concentrates in the wrong way. The intention to concentrate yogic style is also a hindrance to clear seeing & stream-entry.

And Buddha is talking about this much more often than about making vossagga the basis.

Vossagga is inherent in Right View and mindfulness of Right View. Vossagga is inherent in Satipatthana, including in MN 10: "Anissito ca viharati, na ca kiñci loke upādiyati: He remains independent, by not clinging to anything in the world".

May be you can clarify what do you (or Ajahn Brahm) mean by "letting go".

Complete surrender. No attempting to direct the mind towards the breath, for example.

Or do you think Ajahn Brahm was reading the suttas and all of a sudden realized "Oh, I need to make letting go the basis!" Did it, and attained jhāna?

Probably. Mostly likely. I personally am highly confident "yes" is the answer to your question.

Or is it rather that he first attained jhāna (thanks mainly to his previous paramis due to which letting go occured naturally for him) and then came across this passage and thought it would nicely support the way he likes to formulate these things?

Personally, i would guess "no" to the above. The Buddha taught in his 1st sermon: "This craving is to be abandoned". This obviously includes craving for concentration. Ajahn Chah cannot be more clear below from 3:09 to 4:22 below. Ajahn Chah was Ajahn Brahm's teacher. But some of us worked it out without a teacher. Its logical. Surely attempting to direct the mind to the breathing is a form of bhava tanha; which also ultimately does not work. When the mind is actually free from the five hindrances but problems with the clarity of samadhi & meditation objects start to arise; then the mind looks for the right way to practice. Kind regards

[Volo]

What i said here is, what is "maturing in release" is "seclusion, dispassion and cessation" .

However, you possibly disputed this, here: viewtopic.php?t=35354#p528746

It’s when a mendicant develops the awakening factor of mindfulness, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ.

I would assume that if it is "seclusion, dispassion and cessation" what is "maturing in release" (not sambojjhaṅga), than vossaggapariṇāmin should be plural: vossaggapariṇāmino (I hope Assaji or Ven Dhammanando can correct me if I'm wrong here).

Ajahn Chah cannot be more clear below from 3:09 to 4:22 below. Ajahn Chah was Ajahn Brahm's teacher.

And yet as far as I know Ajahn Brahm couldn't attain jhāna while he was in Thailand with Ajahn Chaa, but it's only when he came to Australia all necessary conditions met (I think Ajahn Brahm himself told this, but I cannot find exact quote). So this supports my point that letting go cannot be really made, but it happens naturally when the other things are done.

[mikenz66]

And yet as far as I know Ajahn Brahm couldn't attain jhāna while he was in Thailand with Ajahn Chaa, but it's only when he came to Australia all necessary conditions met (I think Ajahn Brahm himself told this, but I cannot find exact quote). So this supports my point that letting go cannot be really made, but it happens naturally when the other things are done.

My recollection from his talks is somewhat different: that he attained jhanas before he went to Thailand, at retreats run by the Samatha Trust. He's one of the people mentioned by Bhikkhu Dhammanando, who I quoted here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36287&start=105#p544649 who "had some background in relatively orthodox strains of Theravada Buddhism before they got mixed up with the forest tradition."


Mike

[DooDoot]

So this supports my point that letting go cannot be really made, but it happens naturally when the other things are done.

As I posted, stopping the hindrances is not enough for stream-entry & noble jhana. Stopping the hindrances but not abandoning self-clinging can probably lead to some type of self-righteous self-becoming that is a hindrance to stream-entry & real jhana. In the suttas, there are various types of devas & brahmas of high moral virtue & mental purity who did not see through sakkaya and were not stream-enterers. It follows any mental development resembling jhana they had was not the Samma Samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path. MN 117 clearly says the Samma Samadhi of the Noble Eightfold Path must be supported by the other seven factors. Kind regards

[Volo]

My recollection from his talks is somewhat different: that he attained jhanas before he went to Thailand, at retreats run by the Samatha Trust. He's one of the people mentioned by Bhikkhu Dhammanando, who I quoted here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36287&start=105#p544649 who "had some background in relatively orthodox strains of Theravada Buddhism before they got mixed up with the forest tradition."

I have gotten my information from a person who stayed as a monk (I think) in Ajahn Brahm's monastery. I just realized Ajahn wouldn't tell in public when he had attained jhānas (Vinaya!), but he could have told it to a group of monks. But in any case, if what you have written is the case, it shows that letting go happened naturally to him.

[mikenz66]

My recollection from his talks is somewhat different: that he attained jhanas before he went to Thailand, at retreats run by the Samatha Trust. He's one of the people mentioned by Bhikkhu Dhammanando, who I quoted here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=36287&start=105#p544649 who "had some background in relatively orthodox strains of Theravada Buddhism before they got mixed up with the forest tradition."

I have gotten my information from a person who stayed as a monk (I think) in Ajahn Brahm's monastery. I just realized Ajahn wouldn't tell in public when he had attained jhānas (Vinaya!), but he could have told it to a group of monks. But in any case, if what you have written is the case, it shows that letting go happened naturally to him.

I'm reasonably sure he's mentioned it in talks, but I haven't listened to his talks for a few years, so I may be mistaken. Perhaps he feels that discussing his experiences before his was a monk isn't a violation of Vinaya rules.


Mike

[Assaji]

Hi Volo,

What i said here is, what is "maturing in release" is "seclusion, dispassion and cessation" .

However, you possibly disputed this, here: viewtopic.php?t=35354#p528746

It’s when a mendicant develops the awakening factor of mindfulness, which relies on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripens as letting go.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu satisambojjhaṅgaṃ bhāveti vivekanissitaṃ virāganissitaṃ nirodhanissitaṃ vossaggapariṇāmiṃ.

I would assume that if it is "seclusion, dispassion and cessation" what is "maturing in release" (not sambojjhaṅga), then vossaggapariṇāmin should be plural: vossaggapariṇāmino (I hope Assaji or Ven Dhammanando can correct me if I'm wrong here).

If "seclusion, dispassion and cessation" were "maturing in release", the text would be totally different.
Well, is it necessary to seriously argue about a flood of wild conjectures which make no sense at all? Answering them derails the topic.

Let me use this opportunity to explore the meaning of vossaggapariṇāmiṃ. The Commentary explains this compound in two senses: abandoning (pariccāga) the corruptions (kilesa), and springing forward (pakkhandana) to Nibbāna as a basis (ārammaṇa).

DN-a 3, 10. saṅgītisuttavaṇṇanā, ariyavaṃsacatukkavaṇṇanā, para. 64 ⇒
AN-a 4, 1. paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ, 2. caravaggo, 4. saṃvarasuttavaṇṇanā, para. 3 ⇒

vossaggapariṇāminti ettha dve vossaggā — pariccāgavossaggo ca pakkhandanavossaggo ca. tattha vipassanā tadaṅgavasena kilese ca khandhe ca rāgaṃ pariccajatīti pariccāgavossaggo. maggo ārammaṇavasena nibbānaṃ pakkhandatīti pakkhandanavossaggo. tasmā vossaggapariṇāminti yathā bhāviyamāno satisambojjhaṅgo vossaggatthāya pariṇamati, vipassanābhāvañca maggabhāvañca pāpuṇāti, evaṃ taṃ bhāvetīti ayamettha attho. sesapadesupi eseva nayo.

MN-a 1, (paṭhamo bhāgo), 1. mūlapariyāyavaggo, 2. sabbāsavasuttavaṇṇanā, bhāvanāpahātabbāasavavaṇṇanā, para. 12 ⇒
MN-a 1, (paṭhamo bhāgo), 1. mūlapariyāyavaggo, 2. sabbāsavasuttavaṇṇanā, bhāvanāpahātabbāasavavaṇṇanā, para. 12 ⇒

kevalaṃ hettha vossaggo duvidho pariccāgavossaggo ca pakkhandanavossaggo cāti. tattha pariccāgavossaggoti vipassanākkhaṇe ca tadaṅgavasena, maggakkhaṇe ca samucchedavasena kilesappahānaṃ. pakkhandanavossaggoti vipassanākkhaṇe tanninnabhāvena, maggakkhaṇe pana ārammaṇakaraṇena nibbānapakkhandanaṃ. tadubhayampi imasmiṃ lokiyalokuttaramissake atthavaṇṇanānaye vaṭṭati. tathā hi ayaṃ satisambojjhaṅgo yathāvuttena pakārena kilese pariccajati, nibbānañca pakkhandati. vossaggapariṇāminti iminā pana sakalena vacanena vossaggatthaṃ pariṇamantaṃ pariṇatañca, paripaccantaṃ paripakkañcāti idaṃ vuttaṃ hoti. ayañhi bojjhaṅgabhāvanānuyutto bhikkhu yathā satisambojjhaṅgo kilesapariccāgavossaggatthaṃ nibbānapakkhandanavossaggatthañca paripaccati, yathā ca paripakko hoti, tathā naṃ bhāvetīti. esa nayo sesabojjhaṅgesu.

[Assaji]

Hi Frank,

'Noble disciple' is definitely what it is according to the commentaries as you point out in the other thread, but as you know, sometimes commentaries, subcommentaries, and EBT don't all agree so we still have to end up making a personal choice when interpreting.

When they don't all agree, I go for the earliest available explanation. In the case of "vossagga", quite early Paṭisambhidāmagga II 96-97 passage mentioned by Venerable Bodhi provides a helpful indication of the original meaning.