How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

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DooDoot
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How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

Dhammapada 154 is:
Gahakāraka diṭṭhosi,
puna gehaṃ na kāhasi;
Sabbā te phāsukā bhaggā,
gahakūṭaṃ visaṅkhataṃ;
Visaṅkhāragataṃ cittaṃ,
taṇhānaṃ khayamajjhagā
My assumptions & questions are:

1. Visaṅkhāragataṃ cittaṃ appear to be nominative or accusative. Are they accusative?

2. Is taṇhānaṃ genitive?

3. Khaya means destruction. What does "majjhagā" mean?

4. Is the use of personal pronouns necessary? Why do all translations include personal pronouns?

Thank you :smile:
My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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A. Bhikkhu
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:40 am Dear Pali gurus

Dhammapada 154 is:
Gahakāraka diṭṭhosi,
puna gehaṃ na kāhasi;
Sabbā te phāsukā bhaggā,
gahakūṭaṃ visaṅkhataṃ;
Visaṅkhāragataṃ cittaṃ,
taṇhānaṃ khayamajjhagā
My assumptions & questions are:

1. Visaṅkhāragataṃ cittaṃ appear to be nominative or accusative. Are they accusative?

2. Is taṇhānaṃ genitive?

3. Khaya means destruction. What does "majjhagā" mean?

4. Is the use of personal pronouns necessary? Why do all translations include personal pronouns?

Thank you :smile:
My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Dear DooDoot,
as to your numbering:

1. They stand in the nominative.
2. Yes, correct, genitive plural.
3. Khayaṃ + ajjhagā (aor.: "came to", "experienced").
4. In most cases necessary to supply an English translation with a personal pronoun, I would say. For example, the aorist diṭṭhosi implies the first-person ("I") with the si suffix. The "I" in English would be the way to capture that since there is no inflectional form to express it.

Of potential interest, there is a grammatical analysis of the Dhammapda (and other texts) out: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/lesson/p ... _pali3.htm
"One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." -- The Buddha (Dhp.50)

Website: www.embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com
pulga
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by pulga »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:41 am
4. In most cases necessary to supply an English translation with a personal pronoun, I would say. For example, the aorist diṭṭhosi implies the first-person ("I") with the si suffix. The "I" in English would be the way to capture that since there is no inflectional form to express it.
Wouldn't diṭṭhosi be a past participle with the auxiliary verb as ? It would be in the 2nd person singular and convey the present perfect, i.e. "you are seen".
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DooDoot
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by DooDoot »

Thank you Sir for all of your explanation. The link will be most helpful for me. :bow:

However, I remain not understanding why "cittam" cannot be the subject rather than "my cittam", such as: The mind has reached the Unconditioned; It has attained the destruction of craving..
5) visavkharagataj cittaj (my mind is dissolute). The noun cittaj (mind, nominative singular) forms the subject of this sentence. The object is the compound visavkharagataj (dissolute, nominative singular). The verb "to be" is omitted.

6) tanhanaj khayam ajjhaga (I have attained the end of all cravings). The subject is omitted; the verb implies the first person singular pronoun. The verb is ajjhaga ( have attained, 1st person, singular, active, aorist). The object is the noun khayam (end, accusative singular) with its attribute, the noun tanhanaj (of cravings, genitive plural).


:candle:

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:41 am The "I" in English would be the way to capture that since there is no inflectional form to express it.

Could you kindly explain the above more, offering some examples. Thank you
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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SarathW
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by SarathW »

The "I" in English would be the way to capture that since there is no inflectional form to express it.
I had a similar concern about the English translation of Satipathana.
Eg: I am walking, I am sitting etc.
I unsuccessfully try to convince Bhante Dahammanado and Sujato that we should not use the word "I" in English translations.
But they both said that we can't translate that particular phrase without "I" in English.
So my advice is to think in terms of Pali not in English.

By the way the full English translation of the phrase in OP"

Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained

https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=153
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by SarathW »

DD I know that you are trying hard to convince us that self to attain Nibbana.
:tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
pulga
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by pulga »

Ajjhagā can also be 3rd person singular aorist. This would make it correspond to cittaṃ which is in the nominative singular. "The mind has attained to the destruction of craving and is without saṅkhāras."

Pali is inflectional like Latin. The person is reflected in the ending of the verb.
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robertk
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by robertk »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:41 am
DooDoot wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:40 am Dear Pali gurus

Dhammapada 154 is:
Gahakāraka diṭṭhosi,
puna gehaṃ na kāhasi;
Sabbā te phāsukā bhaggā,
gahakūṭaṃ visaṅkhataṃ;
Visaṅkhāragataṃ cittaṃ,
taṇhānaṃ khayamajjhagā
My assumptions & questions are:

1. Visaṅkhāragataṃ cittaṃ appear to be nominative or accusative. Are they accusative?

2. Is taṇhānaṃ genitive?

3. Khaya means destruction. What does "majjhagā" mean?

4. Is the use of personal pronouns necessary? Why do all translations include personal pronouns?

Thank you :smile:
My mind has reached the Unconditioned; I have attained the destruction of craving.

Dear DooDoot,
as to your numbering:

1. They stand in the nominative.
2. Yes, correct, genitive plural.
3. Khayaṃ + ajjhagā (aor.: "came to", "experienced").
4. In most cases necessary to supply an English translation with a personal pronoun, I would say. For example, the aorist diṭṭhosi implies the first-person ("I") with the si suffix. The "I" in English would be the way to capture that since there is no inflectional form to express it.

Of potential interest, there is a grammatical analysis of the Dhammapda (and other texts) out: http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/lesson/p ... _pali3.htm
I can't seem to connect to that link?
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DooDoot
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:48 am I had a similar concern about the English translation of Satipathana.
Eg: I am walking, I am sitting etc.
I unsuccessfully try to convince Bhante Dahammanado and Sujato that we should not use the word "I" in English translations.
But they both said that we can't translate that particular phrase without "I" in English.
So my advice is to think in terms of Pali not in English.
It appears it was inevitable your advice would be unsuccessful because the Satipatthana Sutta appears to literally used personal pronouns, as follows:
Furthermore, when a mendicant is walking they know: ‘I am walking.’ When standing they know: ‘I am standing.’ When sitting they know: ‘I am sitting.’ And when lying down they know: ‘I am lying down.’

Puna caparaṃ, bhikkhave, bhikkhu gacchanto vā ‘gacchāmī’ti pajānāti, ṭhito vā ‘ṭhitomhī’ti pajānāti, nisinno vā ‘nisinnomhī’ti pajānāti, sayāno vā ‘sayānomhī’ti pajānāti

https://suttacentral.net/mn10/en/sujato
Definitions for amhi
Concise Pali English Dictionary
amhi
1st. sing. of as, to be
I am.
:alien:
SarathW wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:53 amDD I know that you are trying hard to convince us that self to attain Nibbana.
Better than continually making poor kamma.

:focus:
robertk wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:29 am I can't seem to connect to that link?
The link previously connected for me but is not currently connecting. Regards
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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pitakele
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by pitakele »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:50 amThe link previously connected for me but is not currently connecting. Regards

Here is the link for just verse 154 - maybe it will work

http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/BDLM/en/lesson/p ... tha154.htm
now here = nowhere
pulga
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by pulga »

The Critical Pali Dictionary sites the verse, though it reads ajjhagā as being in the 3rd person singular.
aor. (a), 3 sg. ajjhagā, Sn 204 (amataṁ santiṁ); 225 (khayaṁ virāgaṁ, etc.; Pj); 723 (monaṁ); 956 (ratiṁ); Dhp 154 (taṇhānaṁ khayaṁ);
https://cpd.uni-koeln.de/search?article_id=3325
ssasny
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by ssasny »

Yes, that's how I would take ajjhagā.
3rd person singular (root) aorist of adhigacchati.
adhi --> ajjh + a augment + root + personal ending.

It (the mind) has attained/reached the destruction/termination of craving(s).
Last edited by ssasny on Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
A. Bhikkhu
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

SarathW wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:48 am
The "I" in English would be the way to capture that since there is no inflectional form to express it.
... So my advice is to think in terms of Pali not in English.
What do you mean exactly? Sure, when reading Pāḷi we can think purely within the bounds of pure Pāḷi but for translation we have to build bridges. For example, how would you translate the word gacchāmi? If we just render it as "go", in many cases we won't be able to know who goes. Is it that "I", "you", "we" or "they" go? We have to use these pronouns from time to time. I saw some translators put them in square brackets to indicate that that particular word is not found in the Pāḷi ... Mettā
"One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." -- The Buddha (Dhp.50)

Website: www.embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com
A. Bhikkhu
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

pulga wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:44 am
A. Bhikkhu wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:41 am
4. In most cases necessary to supply an English translation with a personal pronoun, I would say. For example, the aorist diṭṭhosi implies the first-person ("I") with the si suffix. The "I" in English would be the way to capture that since there is no inflectional form to express it.
Wouldn't diṭṭhosi be a past participle with the auxiliary verb as ? It would be in the 2nd person singular and convey the present perfect, i.e. "you are seen".
You are right, mistake on my part, thanks for pointing that out! Never heard of aorists being formed from declined past participles ...
DooDoot wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:10 am However, I remain not understanding why "cittam" cannot be the subject rather than "my cittam", such as: The mind has reached the Unconditioned
I would take visaṅkhāragataṃ as an adjective modifying cittaṃ and not as the sentence predicate. Firstly, since such are usually situated at the end of a sentence (seniyo bimbisāro ... saraṇaṃ gato - "Seniya Bimbisāra ... went for refuge"). Secondly, adjectives (incl. past participles like gata) usually precede the noun they modify (e.g. kāḷī dāsī bhinnena sīsena ... ujjhāpesi - "with broken head, the slave Kāḷī ... made a complaint"). But with their usual nature as verbal adjectives that wouldn't be too much of a difference from what you suggested for our case. I would translate thus: "The mind, attained to [a state of] divestment of formations, obtained the destruction of cravings (pl. in pāḷi)", or something like that. In this way "mind" is modified by the phrase "attained ..."

The commentary describes it in any case that it is about his (i.e. "my"): "... mama cittaṃ ..." But this is just a gloss and we could still render it "the mind", speaking impersonally, being actually in line with the Pāḷi.
pulga wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:06 amAjjhagā can also be 3rd person singular aorist. This would make it correspond to cittaṃ which is in the nominative singular.
Yes, I agree, that is how I intended it also.
Last edited by A. Bhikkhu on Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
"One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." -- The Buddha (Dhp.50)

Website: www.embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com
A. Bhikkhu
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Re: How to translate Dhammapada 154 ???

Post by A. Bhikkhu »

robertk wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:29 am I can't seem to connect to that link?
Is it perhaps due to browser settings of some sort, for me it works just fine. The connection is not secure, perhaps that's why ... A Google search of "grammatical analysis dhammapada readings in Pali Texts" should find the respective site, at least it did so for me.
"One should not consider the faults of others, nor their doing or not doing good or bad deeds. One should consider only whether one has done or not done good or bad deeds." -- The Buddha (Dhp.50)

Website: www.embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com
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