Hetu and paccaya

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Ceisiwr
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Hetu and paccaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

Should hetu be translated as "cause" or "condition? Is it distinct from or synonymous with "paccaya"?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by robertk »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:44 am Should hetu be translated as "cause" or "condition? Is it distinct from or synonymous with "paccaya"?
Hetu is root, as in root condition .
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

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robertk wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:11 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:44 am Should hetu be translated as "cause" or "condition? Is it distinct from or synonymous with "paccaya"?
Hetu is root, as in root condition .
I see so its not cause as in A directly causes B, but rather A is the root condition for B?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by robertk »

From Nina Van gorkom:
https://ia800501.us.archive.org/24/item ... e/cond.pdf
The first condition mentioned in the “Pat.
t.h¯ana” is root-condition, hetu-paccaya. There are
three akusala hetus: lobha, attachment, dosa, aversion, and moha, ignorance, and these
can have many degrees. Lobha can be a slight attachment or it can be clinging, greed or
covetousness. Dosa can be a slight aversion, or it can be as intense as anger or hatred.
Moha is ignorance of realities, it is ignorance of what is kusala or akusala, and ignorance of
the four noble truths1
. Moha is the root of all that is akusala, it arises with each akusala
citta. There are three sobhana (beautiful) hetus: alobha, non-attachment or generosity,
adosa, non-aversion or kindness, and amoha, pa~n~n¯a or right understanding. The three
sobhana hetus can have many degrees, they can even be lokuttara (supramundane), when
they accompany lokuttara citta which experiences nibb¯ana.
These six roots are actually cetasikas or mental factors which accompany citta. They
are called root, since they are the firm foundation of the citta. Just as a tree rests on its
roots and receives sap through the roots in order to grow, evenso are the akusala cittas
and sobhana cittas dependent on the presence of the roots and they cannot occur in their
absence. Thus, the roots are powerful conditions for the cittas which are rooted in them.
When akusala citta arises it is always rooted in moha, and it may have in addition the
root of lobha or of dosa. The twelve types of akusala citta are classified according to hetu:
− eight types are rooted in moha and lobha, and they are called lobha-m¯ula-cittas2
,
− two types are rooted in moha and dosa, and they are called dosa-m¯ula-cittas3
,
− two types are rooted only in moha, and they are called moha-m¯ula-cittas4
.
All cittas accompanied by sobhana hetus are called sobhana cittas. Not only kusala citta,
but also vip¯akacitta and kiriyacitta that are accompanied by sobhana hetus are sobhana
cittas.
All sobhana cittas have to be rooted in alobha and adosa and they may or may not be
rooted in amoha or pa~n~n¯a as well. There are eight types of mah¯a-kusala cittas (kusala cittas
of the sense-sphere5
), eight types of mah¯a-vip¯akacittas and eight types of mah¯a-kiriyacittas
(of the arahat6
). Of each of the three sets of eight types, four types are accompanied
by pa~n~n¯a and four types are not accompanied by pa~n~n¯a, thus, accompanied by the two
sobhana hetus of alobha and adosa7
. The sobhana hetus that accompany these sobhana
cittas condition them by way of root-condition, hetu-paccaya.
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Assaji
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:44 am Should hetu be translated as "cause" or "condition? Is it distinct from or synonymous with "paccaya"?
It should be translated as "cause", while "paccaya" is a "condition".
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:01 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:44 am Should hetu be translated as "cause" or "condition? Is it distinct from or synonymous with "paccaya"?
It should be translated as "cause", while "paccaya" is a "condition".
I’ve heard arguments that in the suttas “hetu” was just another synonym for “condition” which then became “cause” in the Abhidhamma (from sylvesters posts here). What are your thoughts on that?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:44 am Is it distinct from or synonymous with "paccaya"?
Distinct; even though the two terms are often used together. Example, nāmarūpaṃ hetu, nāmarūpaṃ paccayo viññāṇakkhandhassa paññāpanāyā (SN 22.82). In Abhidhamma, there is the common word compound "hetupaccayā".

AN 10.61 says the five hindrances are the paccaya (condition) for ignorance. But the five hindrances cannot be the cause (hetu) of ignorance because AN 10.61 appears to say ignorance has nothing preceding it.

SN 22.56 & SN 22.82 appear to say nama-rupa (mind-body) is the cause (hetu) of consciousness.

SN 12.2; SN 12.67, etc, say consciousness is a condition (paccaya) for nama-rupa (mind-body).
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:39 amI’ve heard arguments that in the suttas “hetu” was just another synonym for “condition” which then became “cause” in the Abhidhamma (from sylvesters posts here). What are your thoughts on that?
I have not heard such arguments. These terms are distinct.
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

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Assaji wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:39 amI’ve heard arguments that in the suttas “hetu” was just another synonym for “condition” which then became “cause” in the Abhidhamma (from sylvesters posts here). What are your thoughts on that?
I have not heard such arguments. These terms are distinct.
From the PTS:
1) Hetu (p. 733) Hetu Hetu [Vedic hetu, fr. hi to impel] 1. cause, reason, con- dition S i.134; A iii.440 sq.; Dhs 595, 1053; Vism 450; Tikp 11, 233, 239. In the older use paccaya and hetu are almost identical as synonyms, e. g. n'atthi hetu n'atthi paccayo D i.53; aṭṭha hetū aṭṭha paccayā D iii.284 sq.; cp. S iii.69 sq.; D ii.107; M i.407; A i.55 sq., 66, 200; iv.151 sq.; but later they were differentiated (see Mrs. Rh. D., Tikp introd. p. xi. sq.). The diff. between the two is expld e. g. at Nett 78 sq.; DhsA 303. -- There are a number of other terms, with which hetu is often combd, apparently without distinction in meaning, e. g. hetu paccaya kāraṇa Nd2 617 (s. v. sankhā); mūla h. nidāna sambhava pabhava samuṭṭhāna āhāra ārammaṇa paccaya samudaya: frequent in the Niddesa (see Nd2 p. 231, s. v. mūla). <-> In the Abhidhamma we find hetu as "moral condition" referring to the 6 mūlas or bases of good & bad kamma, viz. lobha, dosa, moha and their opposites: Dhs 1053 sq.; Kvu 532 sq. -- Four kinds of hetu are distinguished at DhsA 303=VbhA 402, viz. hetu˚, paccaya˚, uttama˚, sādhāraṇa˚. Another 4 at Tikp 27, viz. kusala˚, akusala˚, vipāka˚, kiriya˚, and 9 at Tikp 252, viz. kusala˚, akusala˚, avyākata˚, in 3X3 constellations (cp. DhsA 303). -- On term in detail see Cpd. 279 sq.; Dhs. trsln §§ 1053, 1075. -- abl. hetuso from or by way of (its) cause S v.304; A iii.417. -- acc. hetu ( -- ˚) (elliptically as adv.) on account of, for the sake of (with gen.); e. g. dāsa -- kammakara -- porisassa hetu M ii.187; kissa hetu why? A iii.303; iv.393; Sn 1131; Pv ii.81 (=kiŋ nimittaŋ PvA 106); pubbe kata˚ by reason (or in consequence) of what was formerly done A i.173 sq.; dhana˚ for the sake of gain Sn 122. -- 2. suitability for the attainment of Arahantship, one of the 8 conditions precedent to becoming a Buddha Bu ii.59=J i.14, 44. <-> 3. logic Miln 3.
-- paccaya the moral causal relation, the first of the 24 Paccayas in the Paṭṭhāna Tikp 1 sq., 23 sq., 60 sq., 287, 320; Dukp 8, 41 sq.; Vism 532; VbhA 174. -- pabhava arising from a cause, conditioned Vin i.40; DhA i.92. -- vāda the theory of cause, as adj. "proclaimer of a cause," name of a sect M i.409; opp. ahetu -- vāda "denier of a cause" (also a sect) M i.408; ahetu -- vādin id. J v.228, 241 (=Jtm 149).
https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... rchhws=yes

The argument goes that it was the Abhidhamma that changed it from "condition" to "cause".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by Assaji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:33 pm From the PTS:
1) Hetu (p. 733) Hetu Hetu [Vedic hetu, fr. hi to impel] 1. cause, reason, con- dition S i.134; A iii.440 sq.; Dhs 595, 1053; Vism 450; Tikp 11, 233, 239. In the older use paccaya and hetu are almost identical as synonyms, e. g. n'atthi hetu n'atthi paccayo D i.53; aṭṭha hetū aṭṭha paccayā D iii.284 sq.; cp. S iii.69 sq.; D ii.107; M i.407; A i.55 sq., 66, 200; iv.151 sq.; but later they were differentiated (see Mrs. Rh. D., Tikp introd. p. xi. sq.). The diff. between the two is expld e. g. at Nett 78 sq.; DhsA 303. -- There are a number of other terms, with which hetu is often combd, apparently without distinction in meaning, e. g. hetu paccaya kāraṇa Nd2 617 (s. v. sankhā); mūla h. nidāna sambhava pabhava samuṭṭhāna āhāra ārammaṇa paccaya samudaya: frequent in the Niddesa (see Nd2 p. 231, s. v. mūla). <-> In the Abhidhamma we find hetu as "moral condition" referring to the 6 mūlas or bases of good & bad kamma, viz. lobha, dosa, moha and their opposites: Dhs 1053 sq.; Kvu 532 sq. -- Four kinds of hetu are distinguished at DhsA 303=VbhA 402, viz. hetu˚, paccaya˚, uttama˚, sādhāraṇa˚. Another 4 at Tikp 27, viz. kusala˚, akusala˚, vipāka˚, kiriya˚, and 9 at Tikp 252, viz. kusala˚, akusala˚, avyākata˚, in 3X3 constellations (cp. DhsA 303). -- On term in detail see Cpd. 279 sq.; Dhs. trsln §§ 1053, 1075. -- abl. hetuso from or by way of (its) cause S v.304; A iii.417. -- acc. hetu ( -- ˚) (elliptically as adv.) on account of, for the sake of (with gen.); e. g. dāsa -- kammakara -- porisassa hetu M ii.187; kissa hetu why? A iii.303; iv.393; Sn 1131; Pv ii.81 (=kiŋ nimittaŋ PvA 106); pubbe kata˚ by reason (or in consequence) of what was formerly done A i.173 sq.; dhana˚ for the sake of gain Sn 122. -- 2. suitability for the attainment of Arahantship, one of the 8 conditions precedent to becoming a Buddha Bu ii.59=J i.14, 44. <-> 3. logic Miln 3.
-- paccaya the moral causal relation, the first of the 24 Paccayas in the Paṭṭhāna Tikp 1 sq., 23 sq., 60 sq., 287, 320; Dukp 8, 41 sq.; Vism 532; VbhA 174. -- pabhava arising from a cause, conditioned Vin i.40; DhA i.92. -- vāda the theory of cause, as adj. "proclaimer of a cause," name of a sect M i.409; opp. ahetu -- vāda "denier of a cause" (also a sect) M i.408; ahetu -- vādin id. J v.228, 241 (=Jtm 149).
https://dsalsrv04.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/ ... rchhws=yes

The argument goes that it was the Abhidhamma that changed it from "condition" to "cause".
Well, concurrent use of two terms doesn't prove that they are identical. And Thomas Rhys-Davids doesn't say that they are synonyms.

Evidently it is a common error in modern Pali studies to deduce the synonymity from concurrent usage. However, this is not a sufficient proof. On the contrary, if two terms are regularly used alongside, they must be different in meaning. For example, if mathematicians use the expression "necessary and sufficient", it means they are talking about two different kinds of relationship. The terms can be deemed synonymous only if they are used interchangeably.
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

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Assaji wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 11:39 amI’ve heard arguments that in the suttas “hetu” was just another synonym for “condition” which then became “cause” in the Abhidhamma (from sylvesters posts here). What are your thoughts on that?
I have not heard such arguments. These terms are distinct.
There is one case at least in which they are not distinct, the already-mentioned hetupaccaya/hetupratyaya of the Sarvāstivādin and Theravādin Abhidharmas, in which the cause is a condition. But a cause is always necessarily a condition for an effect. That being said, pratyaya is a more versatile term, which is why we speak of "hetupratyaya" and not "pratyayahetu" or something like that. A cause is necessarily a condition for an effect, but a mere condition needn't be directly causally related to said effect.
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by ToVincent »

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
Paccaya, [Ved.pratyaya]
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦

प्रत्यय pratyaya [act. pratī ].
- ground , basis , motive or cause of anything MBh. (no pre or contemporary Buddhist's reference; afaik).
- proof, ascertainment Mn. MBh. (again, not a pre-Buddhist reference, yet a bit closer).

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
प्रती pratī [prati-√ इ i ]
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
- to come back, return RV.
- Desid. [ pratīṣiṣati ], to wish or try to understand Pāṇ.


::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Paccayā (instr. sing. of paccaya (m.))
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā
Saṅkhārā (nom. pl. m.) are the feedback (by means) of avijjā.

Saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṃ
Viññāṇaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of saṅkhāra.

Viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṃ
Nāmarūpaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of viññāṇa.

Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ
Saḷāyatanaṃ (nom. sing. nt.) is the feedback of nāmarūpa.

Saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso
Phasso (nom. sing. m.) is the feedback of saḷāyatana.

phassapaccayā vedanā (f.)
Vedanā (nom. sing. f.) is the feedback of phassa.

etc.
vedanāpaccayā taṇhā, (f.)
taṇhāpaccayā upādānaṃ, (nt.)
upādānapaccayā bhavo, (m.)
bhavapaccayā jāti, (f. )
jātipaccayā jarāmaraṇaṃ (f. nt.)

__________

Also:

¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
paṭicca
¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦¦
ger. of pacceti (paṭi+√i - [prati-√ इ i ])
Pacceti [paṭi+i] to come on to, come back to.

And:

::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Hetu (√hi-tu)
::::::::::::::::::::::::::

हेतु hetu
- " impulse " , motive , cause , cause of , reason for RV.

√ हि hi
- to discharge , cast , shoot RV.
- to convey , bring , procure ib. ŚBr.
- to send forth , set in motion , impel RV. AV. ŚBr. KātyŚr.
- to stimulate or incite to RV.

॰तु -tu forms substantives of action or instrument.

.
.
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by ToVincent »

From what was said above, I was wondering about these translations.
- With name-and-form as condition, the six sense bases [come to be] (Bodhi)

- From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. (Thanissaro)

- Name and form are conditions for the six sense fields. (Sujato)

Nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṃ
SN 12.39

Bhikkhu Bodhi connotes that the verb "come to be" is implied.

In Thanissaro's definition (SN 12.20), the implied verb "come", makes an accusative out of the six sense media.

In Sujato's definition, the six sense fields (saḷāyatanaṃ) are also considered as an accusative.

But what about: Vedanāpaccayā taṇhā (f.)
Does it mean that taṇhā is an accusative plural?
Would the translation be correct, as: Vedanā is a conditions for cravings (plural)?

What to say about: bhavapaccayā jāti (f.)?
Would jāti be plural? — births?

What to say about: upādānapaccayā bhavo (m.)
Bhavo as accusative ?!?!?

-----

New translation:
Upādānapaccayā bhavo
Bhavo is the feedback of appropriation.

Note:
imassuppādā idaṃ uppajjati.
From the fall down of this (uppāda), this originates (bhava) —
With the purpose to give a feedback to uppāda.
Bhava is the direct result of uppāda - and that "information", is what is sent back to uppāda.

This makes it unequivocal that there is a cause [which is exactly what an ablative is supposed to be specific about — namely a "cause"]. And that there is a place "above", that triggers an action, from which a feedback will be returned.


√ पद् pad
- to fall, fall down RV. AV. VS. Br.
- to cause to fall AV. AitBr.

उत्पद् utpad [ut-pad]
- to arise , rise , originate , be born or produced ; to come forth , become visible , appear ŚBr. MBh.


------

Note:
I wonder what's the feedback of death - for those who propound, and cherish it so much?
I suppose that those who are so fond of it, finally come to know ... the bottomless vacuity - as in a total inanity, with no meaning and ideas.

Buddha did'nt talk about what is above ignorance (the exact nature of nibbāna, without remnant) — nor did he talk about what is below death — Did He?

Just kidding!
.
.
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Re: Hetu and paccaya

Post by DooDoot »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 5:44 am Should hetu be translated as "cause" or "condition? Is it distinct from or synonymous with "paccaya"?
The Abhidhamma Vibhanga has the following passage:
sabbaṁ rūpaṁ na hetu, ahetukaṁ, hetuvippayuttaṁ, sappaccayaṁ, saṅkhataṁ, rūpaṁ

Therein what is the aggregate of form? The aggregate of form by way of singlefold division: All form is not root. Is not accompanied by root. Is not associated with root. Is with cause. Is conditioned.

https://suttacentral.net/vb1/en/thittila
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