khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

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frank k
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khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

Post by frank k »

khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

A more general question how do you tell looking in the dictionary to confirm if different conjugations and declensions are coming from the same word?
PED shows different looking sanskrit roots, so it's not so easy for me to tell if

khamati
khama
khanti

are all basically the same word.



(H2) kṣānti [p= 326,3] [L=59113] f. patient waiting for anything Vop. xxiii , 3
[L=59114] patience , forbearance , endurance , indulgence Mn. v , 107 MBh. R. &c
[L=59115] the state of saintly abstraction DivyA7v. vi , xii , xviii
[L=59116] (in music) "N." of a śruti
[L=59117] "N." of a river VP.


Khanti & Khantī f. [Sk. kṣānti] patience, forbearance, forgiveness. Def. at Dhs 1341: khantī khamanatā adhivāsanatā acaṇḍikkaŋ anasuropo attamanatā cittassa Most frequent combinations: with mettā (love (see below);
--titikkhā (forbearance): khantī paramaŋ tapo titikkhā nibbānaŋ paramaŋ vadanti Buddhā Dh 184=D ii.49=Vism 295; khantiyā bhiyyo na vijjati, S i.226; cp. DhA iii.237: titikkhā
--sankhātā khantī;
--avihiŋsā (tolerance): kh˚, avihiŋsā, mettatā anudayatā, S v.169;
--akodhana (forbearing, gentle VvA 71;
--soraccaŋ (docility, tractableness) D iii.213 A i.94; also with maddava (gentleness) and s. as quality of a well
--bred horse A iii.248, cp. A ii.113 and khantā
--sovaccassatā (kind speech) Sn 266 (cp. KhA 148). See also cpds.
--Khantī is one of the ten paramitās J i.22 23: cp. A iii.254, 255.
--In other connections: khantiyā upasamena upeta S i.30; ativissuto Sdhp 473 anulomikāya kh˚iyā samannāgata (being of gentle and forbearing disposition) A iii.437, 441; Ps ii.236 sq. Vbh 340. See also A iii.372; Sn 189, 292, 897, 944. <-> In scholastic language frequent in combination diṭṭhi khanti ruci, in def. of idha (Vbh 245), tattha (Nd2) diṭṭhi (Nd2), cp. Nd2 151 and Vbh 325 sq.
--akkhanti intolerance Vin iv.241 (=kopa); Vbh 360 (in def as opp. of khanti Dhs 1341. q. v. above), 378.

--bala (nt.) the force of forbearance; (adj.) one whose strength is patience: . . . aduṭṭho yo titikkhati khantībalaŋ balānīkaŋ tam ahaŋ brūmi brāhmaṇaŋ Dh 399=Sn 623;
--DhA iv.164; Ps ii.171, 176
--mettā forbearing love, in phrase kh˚
--mettânuddayasampanna (adj.) one whose character is compassion and loving forbearance J i.151, 262; PvA 66 (+yuttakāra) VvA 71 (in expln of akodhana);
--suñña (nt.) the void of khanti Ps ii.183;
--soracca (nt.) gentleness and forbearance S i.100, 222; A ii.68; J iii.487; DhA i.56 ˚e niviṭṭha "established in forbearance and meekness" A iii.46=D iii.61.


Khama (adj.) [fr. kṣam] (a) patient, forgiving. (b) enduring, bearing, hardened to (frost & heat, e. g.), fit for.
--(a) kh. belongs to the lovable attributes of a bhikkhu (kh. rūpānaŋ, saddānaŋ, etc.; indulgent as regards sights, sounds, etc.) A iii.113=138; the same applied to the king's horse A iii.282. Khamā paṭipadā the way of gentleness (and opp. akkhamā), viz. akkosantaŋ na paccakosati "not to shout back at him who shouts at you" A ii.152 sq.; cp. Nett 77; classified under the four paṭipadā at D iii.229. In combn. w vacana of meek, gentle speech, in vattā vacana˚ a speaker of good & meek words S ;i.63; ii.282; Miln 380 cp. suvaco khamo A v.24 sq., forgiving: Miln 207.<-> (b) khamo sītassa uṇhassa, etc., enduring frost & heat A ;iii.389=v.132; addhāna˚ padhāna˚ (fit for) A iii.30 ranga˚, anuyoga˚, vimajjana˚ M i.385.
--akkhama (adj.) impatient, intolerant, in combn dubbaca dovacassa karaṇehi dhammehi samannāgata S ii.204 sq. A ii.147 sq. With ref. to rūpa, saddā, etc. (see also above), of an elephant A iii.156 sq.
--D iii.229; Sdhp 95.


Khamati [Dhtp 218: sahane, cp. Sk. kṣamate, perhaps to Lat. humus, cp. Sk. kṣāh, kṣāman soil; Gr. xqw/n xamai] 1. to be patient, to endure, to forgive (acc. of object and gen. of person): n' âhaŋ bhayā khamāmi Vepacittino (not do I forgive V. out of fear) S i.221 222; aparādhaŋ kh. to forgive a fault J iii.394. khamatha forgive DhA ii.254; khamatha me pardon me Miln 13; DhA i.40.

2. (impers.) to be fit, to seem good; esp. in phrase yathā te khameyya "as may seem good to you; if you please" D i.60, 108; M i.487 sabbaŋ me na khamati "I do not approve of" M i.497 sq.; na khamati "it is not right" D ii.67.

3. to be fit for, to indulge in, to approve of, in nijjhānaŋ khamanti M i.133, 480; cp. diṭṭhi
--nijjhāna
--kkhanti M i.480 & A ;i.189.
--ppr. med. khamamāna Vin i.281 (uppaḍḍhakāsinaŋ kh˚) fit for, allowing of, worth, cp Bdhgh. note Vin Texts i.195.
--grd. khamanīya to be allayed, becoming better (of a disease) Vin i.204 D ii.99.
--caus. khamāpeti to pacify, to ask one's pardon, to apologize (to=acc.) J i.267; PvA 123, 195 DhA i.38, 39; ii.75, 254.
--to ask permission or leave (i. e. to say good
--bye) DhA i.14.





Sanskrit search for kṣam:

(H1) kṣam 1 [p= 326,2] [L=59030]

cl.1 A1. kṣámate ("ep." also P. °ti ; Ved. cl.2 P. kṣamiti Pa1n2. 7-2 , 34 ; cl.4 P. kṣāmyati ["cf." "Impv." A1. 3. sg. kṣamyatām BhP. vi , 3 , 30] Pa1n2. 7-3 , 74 ; perf. cakṣame MBh. &c , 3. "pl." °mire S3Br. ; 1. "du." cakṣaṇvahe & 1. "pl." °ṇmahe Pa1n2. 8-2 , 65 "Sch." ; "fut." 2nd kṣaṃsyate , °ti , kṣamiṣyati ; "aor." 2. sg. akṣaṃsthās Bhat2t2. ; "inf." kṣantum MBh. &c ) , to be patient or composed , suppress anger , keep quiet RV. x , 104 , 6 MBh. R. &c ;

to submit to ("dat.") S3Br. iii ;

iv ;

to bear patiently , endure , put up with ("acc.") , suffer MBh. R. Ragh. ;

to pardon , forgive anything ("acc.") to ("gen." or "dat.") MBh. R. &c ("e.g." kṣamasva me tad , forgive me that Ragh. xiv , 58) ;

to allow , permit , suffer Sa1h. ( Kuval. ) ;

(with "Pot.") Das3. ;

to bear any one , be indulgent to MBh. iii , 13051 R. iv , 27 , 22 VarBr2S. Pan5cat. ("Pass.") Hit. ;

to resist Pa1n2. 1-3 , 33 "Sch." ;

to be able to do anything ("inf.") S3is3. i , 38 and ix , 65 ;

to seem good DivyA7v. iv : "Caus." P. A1. kṣamayati , kṣāmayate , to ask any one ("acc.") pardon for anything ("acc.") MBh. Bhag. Pan5cat. ;

(perf. kṣamayām āsa) to suffer or bear patiently R. v , 49 , 11 ("cf." kṣamāpaya) ; (["cf." "Goth." hramja (?) "Angl.Sax." hremman , " to hinder , disquiet. "])
(H2) kṣám 2 [L=59035] f. ("nom." kṣā́s "acc." kṣā́m "instr." kṣamā́ once jmā́ [ RV. vi , 52 , 15] "dat." kṣe [? RV. iv , 3 , 6] , "gen." "abl." gmás , jmás , once kṣmás [ RV. i , 100 , 15] , "loc." kṣámi ; "du." "nom." kṣā́mā [ RV. ii , 39 , 7 ; x , 12 , 1 ; "cf." dyā́va-kṣā́mā] ; "pl." "nom." kṣāmas [ RV. viii , 70 , 4 ; kṣā́mīs fr. °mi SV. ] , kṣā́s [ RV. iv , 28 , 5] "acc." kṣā́s [ RV. x , 2 , 6] "loc." kṣā́su RV. i , 127 , 10 and v , 64 , 2) the ground , earth , "χθών" RV. AV. VS. S3Br. vi
[L=59036] (["cf." kṣmā ; "cf." also "Gk." "χαμαί" , "χθαμαλός" ; "Lat." humus , homo.])
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Re: khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

frank k wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:17 pm khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

A more general question how do you tell looking in the dictionary to confirm if different conjugations and declensions are coming from the same word?
PED shows different looking sanskrit roots, so it's not so easy for me to tell if

khamati
khama
khanti

are all basically the same word.
Dear Frank,
this online dictionary gives the PMA (Pāli-Myanmar Abidan [dictionary]) Pāḷi etymologies without the recourse to Sanskrit -- such recourse is not unproblematic (yet helpful at times) since it is, after all, a different language ... But here Rhys Davids gave the equivalent Skt. roots it seems. Here all the entries:

https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khanti/
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khama/
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khamati/

All from the same root. However, I wouldn't say that they are therefore also the same word since we just have to look at English where slight changes to a word with the same root can cause significant changes of meaning of course.

Blessings!
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Re: khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

Post by frank k »

A. Bhikkhu wrote: Mon Oct 19, 2020 2:51 am ...
Dear Frank,
this online dictionary gives the PMA (Pāli-Myanmar Abidan [dictionary]) Pāḷi etymologies without the recourse to Sanskrit -- such recourse is not unproblematic (yet helpful at times) since it is, after all, a different language ... But here Rhys Davids gave the equivalent Skt. roots it seems. Here all the entries:

https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khanti/
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khama/
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/k/khamati/

All from the same root. However, I wouldn't say that they are therefore also the same word since we just have to look at English where slight changes to a word with the same root can cause significant changes of meaning of course.

Blessings!
Thank you Ven. A.
What would that root be? (in romanized pali) kri?
The links you listed have 'kri' as the root for khama and khamati but nothing shown for khanti. (from the burmese dictionary entries)
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Re: khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:17 pm A more general question how do you tell looking in the dictionary to confirm if different conjugations and declensions are coming from the same word?
The 12th century Burmese grammarian Aggavaṃsa of Arimaddana is the man for this sort of thing. These are the links to the five parts of the Dhātumāla ("Garland of Verbal Roots") section of his Saddanīti Pakaraṇa:

https://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/e0804n.nrf0.xml
https://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/e0804n.nrf1.xml
https://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/e0804n.nrf2.xml
https://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/e0804n.nrf3.xml
https://www.tipitaka.org/romn/cscd/e0804n.nrf4.xml

Under the first link you'll find:
Khamu sahane.
Khamati.
Khanti, khamo, khamanaṃ, evaṃ bhāve.
Kattari pana khantā, khamitā.
‘Khamo hoti sītassapi uṇhassapī’ ti payogā.

(Dhātumālā, chapter 50, Ma-kārantadhātu - endings in -ma)
My translation:
The root √khamu in the sense of ‘tolerate’.

Finite verb, third person singular present: khamati, ‘he tolerates / endures / is patient’.

The nominal forms are thus: khanti (patience; noun of state), khamo (patient; adjective) and khamanaṃ (tolerating; noun of action).

Then the agent nouns are khantā, ‘one who tolerates’ and khamitā, ‘tolerant one’.

Example: ‘Khamo hoti sītassapi uṇhassapi’ - ‘he is tolerant of cold and heat’ (MN 2)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

Post by frank k »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Oct 24, 2020 7:59 am ...
Thanks Bhante, that is useful to know.

What about khama as 'forgiveness'?

For example, in Theravada monks ask each other for forgiveness with this exchange (don't know where this comes from, not from suttas AFAIK):

khamāmi, khamitabbam.
(I forgive you , please forgive me )

I learned it from a text that translated it as 'forgiveness', but 'patience', 'endurance', 'forbearance' all sort of work as well.
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Re: khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

Post by Coëmgenu »

I tolerate you, please tolerate me.

It doesn't sound the best in English, but still technically has a positive meaning. The issues are with the flavour of the word "tolerate" and "toleration" in English.
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Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
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Re: khanti (patience) and khama (patient) are coming from the same root right?

Post by Dhammanando »

frank k wrote: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:23 pm What about khama as 'forgiveness'?
Yes, that too. Actually in Cone's dictionary the entries for khamu derivatives take up several pages. Just a few of them:
Khamati
1. bears patiently, puts up with; submits to; is capable of bearing, stands up to;
2. pardons, forgives someone (gen./dat.) for something (acc.); bears with, indulges.
3. seems good (to, gen./dat); is agreeable (to); seems preferable.
4. is sufficient for, proper for.

[the third sense seems particularly common in connection with embracing right or wrong views]

Khantā [S. kṣantṛ],: one who bears patiently, who endures; who forgives.

Khantimā: patient, enduring, forgiving.

Akkhanti: impatience, intolerance; irascibility; unwillingness to forgive.
From the Sāriputta-sīhanādasutta, AN 9:11:
Atha kho bhagavā āyasmantaṃ sāriputtaṃ āmantesi: ‘khama, sāriputta, imassa moghapurisassa, purā tassa tattheva sattadhā muddhā phalissatī’ ti.

‘Khamām'ahaṃ, bhante, tassa āyasmato sace maṃ so āyasmā evam'āha: ‘khamatu ca me so āyasmā’ ti.

Then the Blessed One addressed the Venerable Sāriputta: “Sāriputta, forgive this hollow man before his head splits into seven pieces right there.”

“I shall forgive this venerable one, bhante, if this venerable one says to me: ‘Let the venerable one forgive me.’”
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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