thina-middhaṃ : sloth and torpor: mental, physical, both?

[frank k]

Reading through PED, both thina and middha each seem to have physical and mental components.
I seem to remember maybe Te. Cmy. says thina is mental, and middha is physical?

What would EBT sutta say on this matter? Are Thina and middha meant to be distinct from each other, such as thina being mental sluggishness and middha being food coma drowsiness? Are are they meant to be kind of synonymous terms each capturing mental and physical causes of sloth?

Also, PED has Thīna, burmese suttas, have 'thina' without 'ī'. I assume this is just one of those annoying situations like vīriya and viriya where they're now taken to be the same word with same meaning but different sloppy spelling.
I wonder why I bother learning stupid differences in languages like the difference between 'complement' and 'compliment', where eventually the misspelling becomes so common that people expect you to understand 'compliment' sometimes means 'complement.'

PED definitions:

Thīna = sloth, mental sluggishness and stiffness

Thīna (nt.) [Sk. styāna; orig. pp. of styāyate to become hard, to congeal; stei̯ā (cp. also thira)=Gr. ste/as grease, tale; Lat. stīpo to compress; also Sk. stimita (motionless)=P. timi; stīma (slow), Mhg. stīm; Goth etc. stains=E. stone; Gr. sti_fos (heap); Lat. stīpes (pale); Ohg. stīf=E. stiff] stiffness, obduracy, stolidity indifference (cp. thaddha & tandī, closely related in meaning).


Together with ;middha it is one of the 5 hindrances (nīvaraṇāni) to Arahantship (see below) Def. as cittassa a-kammaññatā, unwieldiness or impliability of mind (=immobility) at Nd2 290=Dhs 1156 1236=Nett 86;

as citta

-- gelaññaŋ morbid state of mind ("psychosis") at DA i.211.

-- Sn 942 (niddaŋ tandiŋ sahe thīnaŋ pamādena na saŋvase), 1106; Vbh 352 (=Nd2 290 as expln of līnatta); Vism 262 (˚sineha where p. 361 reads patthinna˚).


-- middha sloth & drowsiness, stolidity & torpor; two of the 5 nīvaraṇāni (Dhs. trsl. pp. 120, 310) Vin ii.200 (vigata˚); D i.71, 246; iii.49, 234, 269, 278; S i.99 iii.106; v.277 sq.; A iii.69 sq.; 421; Sn 437 (pañcamī senā Mārassa); It 27, 120; Ps. i.31, 45, 162; ii.12, 169 179, 228; Pug 68; Dhs 1154, 1486; Vism 469; Sdhp 459.


Middha = torpor, drowsiness


Middha (nt.) [orig. pp. perhaps to Vedic mid (?) to be fat=medh, as DhsA 378 gives "medhatī ti middhaŋ. -- More likely however connected with Sk. methi (pillar=Lat. meta), cp. Prk. medhi. The meaning is more to the point too, viz. "stiff." Thus semantically identical with thīna. -- BSk. also middha, e. g. Divy 555] torpor, stupidity, sluggishness D i.71 (thīna˚) Sn 437; A v.18; Dhs 1157; Miln 299, 412 (appa˚ not slothful, i. e. diligent, alert); Vism 450 (˚rūpa; +rogarūpa, jātirūpa, etc., in def. of rūpa); DA i.211 (expld as cetasika gelañña: see on this passage Dhs trsl. §1155) Sdhp 459. -- See thīna.

[Dhammanando]

I seem to remember maybe Te. Cmy. says thina is mental, and middha is physical?

The commentaries follow the Dhammasaṅgaṇī in treating both as mental: thīna as sluggishness of citta, middha as sluggishness of cetasikas. But this is in the context of bhāvanā, in connection with the hindrances. Where the terms are used in non-technical everyday contexts the state may be physical, mental, both, or unspecified. I think unspecified is probably the most common.

Also, PED has Thīna, burmese suttas, have 'thina' without 'ī'.

The word is a past participle that's been made into a noun. The rules for forming past participles would allow both thīna and thina as the pp. of the verb thīyati.

I assume this is just one of those annoying situations like vīriya and viriya where they're now taken to be the same word with same meaning but different sloppy spelling.

It's not that they were once two different words that are now taken to be the same, but that they've always been variant forms of the past participle of the same verb, just as 'dreamed' and 'dreamt' have always been variant past participles of 'dream'.

[frank k]

Thanks Ven. D., very helpful. I guess the English words people use to translate 'sloth and torpor' are similarly ambiguous (physical, mental, both, or unspecified).

How about SN 46.2 that lists the nutriments of thina-middha? Are those similarly ambiguous, or can they be strictly classified as physical or mental?
Atthi, bhikkhave,
There-is, monks,
1-arati
discontent,
2-tandi
lethargy,
3- vijambhitā
lazy stretching,
4- Bhatta-sammado
eating-[induced]-drowsiness,
5- cetaso ca līnattaṃ.
Mind ** sluggishness.

3,4, seem to be physical
5 seems to be specifying mental portion
1 and 2 unspecified?

I seem to remember maybe Te. Cmy. says thina is mental, and middha is physical?

The commentaries follow the Dhammasaṅgaṇī in treating both as mental: thīna as sluggishness of citta, middha as sluggishness of cetasikas. But this is in the context of bhāvanā, in connection with the hindrances. Where the terms are used in non-technical everyday contexts the state may be physical, mental, both, or unspecified. I think unspecified is probably the most common.

Also, PED has Thīna, burmese suttas, have 'thina' without 'ī'.

The word is a past participle that's been made into a noun. The rules for forming past participles would allow both thīna and thina as the pp. of the verb thīyati.

I assume this is just one of those annoying situations like vīriya and viriya where they're now taken to be the same word with same meaning but different sloppy spelling.

It's not that they were once two different words that are now taken to be the same, but that they've always been variant forms of the past participle of the same verb, just as 'dreamed' and 'dreamt' have always been variant past participles of 'dream'.

[Dhammanando]

How about SN 46.2 that lists the nutriments of thina-middha? Are those similarly ambiguous, or can they be strictly classified as physical or mental?

Note that the sutta doesn't identify the nutriment of thīnamiddha with the five items themselves, but rather with frequent unwise attention (ayoniso­ma­nasikā­ra-­bahu­līkāro) to them. And so the immediate cause is wholly mental.

But as to the five, this is how the Vibhaṅga defines them:

1. Tattha katamā arati? Pantesu vā senāsanesu aññataraññataresu vā adhikusalesu dhammesu arati aratitā anabhirati anabhiramaṇā ukkaṇṭhitā paritassitā: ayaṃ vuccati “arati”.
Therein what is “tedium”? Tedium, having tedium, displeasure, being displeased, dissatisfaction, dread of remote abodes or certain higher skilful dhammas. This is called tedium.

2. Tattha katamā tandī? Yā tandī tandiyanā tandimanakatā ālasyaṃ ālasyāyanā ālasyāyitattaṃ: ayaṃ vuccati “tandī”.
Therein what is “apathy”? That which is apathy, being apathetic, mental lethargy, idleness, being idle, state of being idle. This is called apathy.

3. Tattha katamā vijambhitā? Yā kāyassa jambhanā vijambhanā ānamanā vinamanā sannamanā paṇamanā byādhiyakaṃ: ayaṃ vuccati “vijambhitā”.
Therein what is “stretching”? That which is twitching, stretching, bending forward, bending backward, twisting, stretching upwards, fidgeting of the body. This is called stretching.

4. Tattha katamo bhattasammado? Yā bhuttāvissa bhattamucchā bhattakilamatho bhattapariḷāho kāyaduṭṭhullaṃ: ayaṃ vuccati “bhattasammado”.
Therein what is “after meal drowsiness”? That which in one who has eaten is dizziness because of food, fatigue because of food, feverishness because of food, bodily unfitness. This is called after meal drowsiness.

5. Tattha katamaṃ cetaso ca līnattaṃ? Yā cittassa akalyatā akammaññatā olīyanā sallīyanā līnaṃ līyanā līyitattaṃ thinaṃ thīyanā thīyitattaṃ cittassa: idaṃ vuccati “cetaso ca līnattaṃ”.
Therein what is “mental sluggishness”? That which is indisposition of consciousness, unwieldiness, drooping, sagging, sluggishness, being sluggish, state of being sluggish, sloth, being slothful, state of consciousness being slothful. This is called mental sluggishness.
(Vibh. 17:10:1. U Thittila's translation, with 'restlessness' changed to 'stretching' as the translation of vijambhitā)

https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/vb17

And from the Dispeller of Delusion:

The arising of stiffness and torpor comes about through unwise bringing to mind in regard to boredom (arati) and so on. "Boredom" is a name for dissatisfaction; "languor" (tandi) is a name for bodily laziness; "stretching" (vijambhitā) is a name for bending of the body; "faintness after meals" (bhattasammada) is a name for giddiness after meals and feverishness after meals. And mental lassitude" (cetaso līnattaṃ) is a name for the sluggish state of the mind.

Because of employing unwise bringing to mind much in regard to these [states] beginning with boredom, stiffness and torpor arise.
(Dispeller of Delusion I 335)

So, it seems to me that arati is wholly mental; tandī is both bodily and mental (the Dispeller of Delusion later defines it as "bodily idleness due to defilement"); likewise vijambhitā, which is later defined as "bodily shifting due to defilement"; bhattasammada is wholly bodily; and cetaso līnattaṃ wholly mental.

[frank k]

Thanks Ven. D. !

Note that the sutta doesn't identify the nutriment of thīnamiddha with the five items themselves, but rather with frequent unwise attention (ayoniso­ma­nasikā­ra-­bahu­līkāro) to them. And so the immediate cause is wholly mental.
...

Sure, I guess that makes sense (the part about 'the immediate cause is wholly mental ') for Abhidhamma purposes (having to enforce strict classifications for logic & coherence),
but from a practical and useful purpose, does it really make sense that because I gorged on my lunch and caused food coma,
the cause is mental and not physical?

The real cause of my sloth and torpor in that case is physical, that I ate too much food.
We shouldn't blame the messenger for the message, saying the messenger (mental cause) is because I'm paying unwise attention (a-yoniso manasi kara) to the anti-samadhi nimitta of bhatta sammado (state of food coma engorgement of overeating).