Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

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DooDoot
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Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

I am questioning the following text in MN 43:
“Wisdom and consciousness—
“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—

are these things mixed or separate?
ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā udāhu visaṃsaṭṭhā?

And can we completely dissect them so as to describe the difference between them?”
Labbhā ca panimesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti?

https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato
It appears "paññāpetuṃ" is from "paññāpeti"; from which "paññāpana" (below) is also derived.

In SN 22.82, the word "paññāpanāya" (dat; gen) is found in the following context, as translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi:
The four great elements, bhikkhu, are the cause and condition for the manifestation of the form aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the feeling aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the perception aggregate. Contact is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the volitional formations aggregate. Name-and-form is the cause and condition for the manifestation of the consciousness aggregate.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.82/en/bodhi#sc20
Bhikkhu Bodhi has footnoted this, saying:
...paññāpana is literally "making known" and something is made known either by becoming manifest or by being described...
My question is:

1. Are there more creative ways to translate this verse?

2. For example, can it be translated to reflect the following statement:
“Wisdom and consciousness—
“Yā cāvuso, paññā yañca viññāṇaṃ—

are these things mixed or separate?
ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā udāhu visaṃsaṭṭhā?

And can we completely dissect them so each has a different manifestation?”
Labbhā ca panimesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti?

For you understand what you cognize, and you cognize what you understand.
Yaṃ hāvuso, pajānāti taṃ vijānāti, yaṃ vijānāti taṃ pajānāti.

That’s why these things are mixed, not separate.
Tasmā ime dhammā saṃsaṭṭhā, no visaṃsaṭṭhā.

And you can never completely dissect them so each has a different manifestation .”
Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti.
Thank you :shrug:
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pulga
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Re: Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by pulga »

I prefer to follow the late British monk Ven. Ñanamoli and to translate paññā solely as "understanding". Understanding the Dhamma doesn't necessarily make one "wise". There are cases in the Suttas where sotāpannas behave foolishly.
And you can never completely dissect them so each has a different manifestation .”
Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti.
And it is not possible that the difference of these things be manifest by completely dividing them.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by DooDoot »

pulga wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:43 pm Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti

And it is not possible that the difference of these things be manifest by completely dividing them.
Thank you Pulga. The above sounds interesting.
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DooDoot
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Re: Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by DooDoot »

pulga wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:43 pm Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti

And it is not possible that the difference of these things be manifest by completely dividing them.
So attempting to translate this word by word i get:
Na (not) ca (and) labbhā (possible) imesaṃ (these; genetive) dhammānaṃ (dhammas'; genitive) vinibbhujitvā (having separated) vinibbhujitvā (having seperated) nānākaraṇaṃ (the difference; the distinction; the separation - nominative or accusative) paññāpetum (infinitive; to manifest).
I think the phrase is saying: "It is not possible for the difference/distinction between them to manifest separately (without eachother)".
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Re: Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by DooDoot »

pulga wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:43 pm Na ca labbhā imesaṃ dhammānaṃ vinibbhujitvā vinibbhujitvā nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti.

And it is not possible that the difference of these things be manifest by completely dividing them.
Hello again Pulga. I really like the above. It is very clear. The more I read it (and compare it to the known translations, which do not make sense to me) the more I like it. :thumbsup: . However, I am trying to discern the above more plainly. Can your translation be:
And it is not possible that the difference between these things to manifest by completely dividing them.
Thanks
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pulga
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Re: Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by pulga »

DooDoot wrote: Wed Dec 30, 2020 6:04 am It is very clear. The more I read it (and compare it to the known translations, which do not make sense to me) the more I like it. :thumbsup: . However, I am trying to discern the above more plainly. Can your translation be:
And it is not possible that the difference between these things to manifest by completely dividing them.
Hi DooDoot,

Sorry for not getting back to you sooner.

While paññāpetuṃ is a causative infinitive I’m inclined to follow Ven. Bodhi’s footnote you’ve cited.
...paññāpana is literally "making known" and something is made known either by becoming manifest or by being described...
This would require that it be translated in the passive, i.e. “to be manifest”. As I understand it, when understanding is cognized the difference between the two is implicit in the whole of the experience. The whole can't be separated into two in order for the difference to be manifest (or described).
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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DooDoot
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Re: Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by DooDoot »

pulga wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 5:05 pm This would require that it be translated in the passive, i.e. “to be manifest”. As I understand it, when understanding is cognized the difference between the two is implicit in the whole of the experience. The whole can't be separated into two in order for the difference to be manifest.....
Thank you Sir :bow:
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sphairos
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Re: Translating "nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetuṃ" ???

Post by sphairos »

Dear DooDoot,

nānākaraṇaṃ paññāpetun”ti

"nānā"

PTS Dictionary:
(adv.) “so and so,” i. e. various, of all kinds
variously, differently

"karaṇa"

noun, neutrum

2. (nt.) (-°) the making, producing of; the doing, performance of (=kamma), as bali° offering of food =bali kamma) PvA 81;
4. (-°) state, condition; in noun-abstract function= °ttaṃ (cp. kamma I.2) as nānā° (=nānattaṃ) difference M II.128; S IV.294;

"paññāpetuṃ"

paññāpeti
(Caus. of pajānāti)

1. to make known, declare, point out, appoint, assign, recognise, define D I.119 (brāhmaṇā brāhmaṇaṃ), 180, 185, 237; It 98 (tevijjaṃ brāhmaṇaṃ)

Infinitive from paññāpeti is "paññāpetuṃ"

so the phrase means, literally: "to cause to understand the doing "so and so" [of them]" ("the doing "so and so"" = "difference").

I don't know if that creative enough... I don't know either if the way you translate is correct: it is far from literal -- it is clear.

"to cause to understand the doing "so and so" [of them]" = "to make known how they differentiate [between themselves]"... = "to make known how they manifest themselves in various ways". This sequence of semantic transformations seems legitimate.

I believe it helps a lot if the translation starts from understanding the literal meaning of each word.

Hope this helps.
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