Thanissaro Bhikkhu's definition of 'compunction' and 'ottappa'

[frank k]

Thanissaro Bhikkhu's definition of 'compunction' and 'ottappa'
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... n-of.html

[Dhammanando]

The Pali term ottappa could mean either compunction prior to an action, or both prior to and after an action.

The suttas are not clear on this point.

This is true in the sense that the suttas don't contain any explicit statement delimiting the occasions when ottappa might arise.

Nevertheless, I think we may reasonably infer that the term refers solely to something that arises before some contemplated unwholesome action and whose arising restrains us from doing it. I would infer this from the fact that:

1. Compunction, regret or remorse arising after the performance of an unwholesome act is consistently denoted either by vippatisāra or kukkucca (defined in the commentaries as synonyms), never by ottappa.

2. Vippatisāra and kukkucca are consistently represented as unwholesome states, while ottappa is consistently represented as a wholesome one. The suttas have nothing positive to say about the first two terms and nothing negative to say about the third.

3. If ottappa referred to the remorse that arises after an unwholesome act, then it would be hard to see how it could be anything but another name for vippatisāra or kukkucca. This, however, would be inconsistent with #2.

[DooDoot]

This is true in the sense that the suttas don't contain any explicit statement delimiting the occasions when ottappa might arise.

The suttas appear to only provide the preventive/preceding case:

And how are you prudent?
Kathañcāvuso, ottappī hoti?

Take a mendicant who fosters prudence by thinking: ‘If unarisen unskillful qualities arise in me, they’ll lead to harm.’ ‘If I don’t give up arisen unskillful qualities, they’ll lead to harm.’ ‘If I don’t give rise to unarisen skillful qualities, they’ll lead to harm.’ ‘If arisen skillful qualities cease in me, they’ll lead to harm.’

Idhāvuso, bhikkhu ‘anuppannā me pāpakā akusalā dhammā uppajjamānā anatthāya saṃvatteyyun’ti ottappati, ‘uppannā me pāpakā akusalā dhammā appahīyamānā anatthāya saṃvatteyyun’ti ottappati, ‘anuppannā me kusalā dhammā anuppajjamānā anatthāya saṃvatteyyun’ti ottappati, ‘uppannā me kusalā dhammā nirujjhamānā anatthāya saṃvatteyyun’ti ottappati.

https://suttacentral.net/sn16.2/en/sujato

3. If ottappa referred to the remorse that arises after an unwholesome act, then it would be hard to see how it could be anything but another name for vippatisāra or kukkucca. This, however, would be inconsistent with #2.

Is the above suggesting the following must be remorse?

After you have acted with the body, you should check on that same act:
Katvāpi te, rāhula, kāyena kammaṃ tadeva te kāyakammaṃ paccavekkhitabbaṃ:

11.2‘Does this act with the body that I have done lead to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both?
‘yannu kho ahaṃ idaṃ kāyena kammaṃ akāsiṃ idaṃ me kāyakammaṃ attabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati, parabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati, ubhayabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati—

11.3Is it unskillful, with suffering as its outcome and result?’
akusalaṃ idaṃ kāyakammaṃ dukkhudrayaṃ dukkhavipākan’ti?

11.4If, while checking in this way, you know:
Sace kho tvaṃ, rāhula, paccavekkhamāno evaṃ jāneyyāsi:

11.5‘This act with the body that I have done leads to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both.
‘yaṃ kho ahaṃ idaṃ kāyena kammaṃ akāsiṃ, idaṃ me kāyakammaṃ attabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati, parabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati, ubhayabyābādhāyapi saṃvattati—

11.6It’s unskillful, with suffering as its outcome and result.’ Then, Rāhula, you should confess, reveal and clarify such a deed to the Teacher or a sensible spiritual companion.

akusalaṃ idaṃ kāyakammaṃ dukkhudrayaṃ dukkhavipākan’ti, evarūpaṃ te, rāhula, kāyakammaṃ satthari vā viññūsu vā sabrahmacārīsu desetabbaṃ, vivaritabbaṃ, uttānīkātabbaṃ;

11.7And having revealed it you should restrain yourself in future.
desetvā vivaritvā uttānīkatvā āyatiṃ saṃvaraṃ āpajjitabbaṃ.

https://suttacentral.net/mn61/en/sujato

[Dhammanando]

The suttas appear to only provide the preventive/preceding case:

Yes, but the manner in which the term is defined in the suttas is ostensive rather than stipulative. As such, suttas like the one you quoted can be said to count against Thanissaro's "unclarity" claim, but can't be said to amount to a definite refutation of it.

Is the above suggesting the following must be remorse?

Remorse would be part of the "hurt to oneself" in 11.2.

11.2‘Does this act with the body that I have done lead to hurting myself, hurting others, or hurting both?

[frank k]

...

Thanks Bhante, on your thoughts of ottappa being more preventative than remorse afterwards.
What do you make of 'hiri'?
Is that usually referring to shame after having done an unskillful act?
Or can hiri also refer to an attitude of preventing doing something that will cause shame?
My impresssions from the eng. sutta translations I've read is for 'hiri' it's the remorseful shame after having committed already.