"Gata" translated as "Immersed"

[Dhammanando]

Does Bhante now understand

Dear Sāmanera,

I'm afraid that since your English is unintelligible to me, I have no idea whether I understand the matter you're asking me about.

I suggest that you consider composing your posts in German and then using Google Translate to translate them into English. Though the results won't be perfect, they'll surely be better than the endless stream of gobbledegook with which you've been inundating the forum for the last week.

https://translate.google.com/

From the Terms of Service:

This is an English language forum, therefore posts must be in English or Pāli (i.e. the language of the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries).

The sāmanera's idiolect is neither English nor mutually intelligible with English.

[Samana_Johann]

Does Bhante now understand

Dear Sāmanera,

I'm afraid that since your English is unintelligible to me, I have no idea whether I understand the matter you're asking me about.

I suggest that you consider composing your posts in German and then using Google Translate to translate them into English. Though the results won't be perfect, they'll surely be better than the endless stream of gobbledegook with which you've been inundating the forum for the last week.

https://translate.google.com/

From experiance it's not a language issue but the hindrance of Sakkāyadiṭṭhi, Bhante, and that closes up what ever seems to disturb. Kayagatasati, to begin with, could of course help. Not that much a problem for my person and may Bhante not feel much disturbed, it wouldn't reach him anyhow.

[Dhammanando]

From experiance it's not a language issue

Sāmanera,

From experience it is most assuredly a language issue, since even on a good day I'll be lucky if can make head or tail of even one in four of your posts.

From the Terms of Service:

This is an English language forum, therefore posts must be in English or Pāli (i.e. the language of the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries).

[coconut]

From experiance it's not a language issue

Sāmanera,

From experience it is most assuredly a language issue, since even on a good day I'll be lucky if can make head or tail of even one in four of your posts.

From the Terms of Service:

This is an English language forum, therefore posts must be in English or Pāli (i.e. the language of the Tipitaka and the ancient commentaries).

My german is rusty, but I can see where Johann is using German expressions in English, like when he says "or." at the end of the sentence, which is "oder" in German, a popular expression to prompt someone else to give their opinion. It's almost like how Canadians say "Eh?" at the end of their sentence. Writing "or" at the end of the sentence sounds weird, and people are not going to understand the german expression "oder?"..

So yeah, definitely a language barrier.

[frank k]

In http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html
I see Aj Thanissaro translating Kayagata-sati as "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body"

Seems like a stretch to me to translate "gata" as "immersed". What do you think?

What alternatives do you propose Bhante?
I'm using AT's 'immersed' for now, but I'll change to something else if we think it's problematic.
I'm ok with Assaji's proposed 'body-related' sati, but I'm not seeing what's so bad about 'immersed'.
What exactly is the problem, what misunderstanding are people going to have that negatively impacts their understanding of kayagatasati?

I think kayagatasati, like marana-sati, anapana-sati, and just sati, are all already commonly misunderstood. And the reason is because the Buddha is not labeling those practices with long descriptive precise words. They're meant to be short nicknames to be easily referred to.

I edited the wikipedia page for marana-sati to give it the correct meaning, and some low life reverted my changes a few weeks later with no explanation and notification, and almost a year later I noticed that and changed it back again, this time setting alerts to let me know if anyone tries to change it.
Marana sati is not a general inquiry into the nature and implications of death. The Buddha gave it a precise meaning in the suttas.

I bring up that incident because it's partially caused by people reading too much into the name 'marana sati' and thinking it's fully describing the practice.
"mindfulness" as we know is completely misunderstood by most people. It takes careful sutta study to actually reveal that
sati means one remembers Dharma [teachings, instructions] relevant to the task at hand, using 4 satipatthana as the default.
It would be unwieldy to say that every time, so the Buddha just says ,'sati.'

Similarly with kayagata, we can't expect a correct translation is going to make people understand what the practice actually is.Disciples during the Buddha's time would have needed an explanation, because it's just a short nickname, just like marana sati, and sati.

[Kumara]

In http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html
I see Aj Thanissaro translating Kayagata-sati as "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body"

Seems like a stretch to me to translate "gata" as "immersed". What do you think?

What alternatives do you propose Bhante?

'Frank'ly, I'm still looking into this. Meanwhile you may find this (which I've just found) useful:

This type of mindfulness is particularly emphasized with reference to coming into contact with enticing or distracting objects. In the Janapada Sutta of the Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta in the Saṃyutta Nikāya, the Buddha made the following simile: Suppose a great crowd were to assemble to see the most beautiful girl of the country singing and dancing. A man would be ordered to carry around a bowl of oil full to the brim between the crowd and the girl, and he would be killed if he spilt even a little oil. The Buddha explained that “the bowl of oil full to the brim” represents kāyagatā sati (SN V 170), which is rendered as “mindfulness directed to the body” by Bodhi (2000 , p. 1649). This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan ( 2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated. The term kāyagatā sati is synonymous with kāyasati (mindfulness of one’s sentient organism) that appears in the Dukkhadhamma Sutta quoted above (see Kuan 2008 , pp. 43–44).

Moreover, Kuan (2008 , pp. 131–132) also showed that kāyagatā sati and the four satipaṭṭhānas (establishments or foundations of mindfulness), that is, mindfulness of the body, of feelings, of mental states and of dhammas, are just different expressions of the same practice based on different schemes of classification of phenomena. In this connection, it is noteworthy that the Chinese counterpart of this Pali sutta, namely sūtra 623 of the Saṃyukta Āgama, has a passage not found in the Pali version. Following the simile of the oil bowl, this passage states that the Buddha exhorts the monks to dwell in the establishment of mindfulness of the body (身念處), which is apparently equivalent to kāyagatā sati in the Pali version. This is immediately explained as contemplation of the body, of feelings, of mental states and of dhammas, to wit the four establishments of mindfulness (T II 174c). We do not know whether this passage is a later interpolation into the Mūlasarvāstivāda version preserved in Chinese or the Pali version omits it from the original (or earlier) version. In any case, it is certain that what is meant in this discourse is not mindfulness of the physical body alone, but is mindfulness in a much more comprehensive sense.

(From Mindfulness in Similes in Early Buddhist Literature by Tse-fu Kuan)

[Kumara]

From the above:

This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan (2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated.

This body is easy to understand by thinking of how we use everybody, somebody, etc.

[DooDoot]

This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan (2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated.

The above sounds like "sakkaya" ("identity with the aggregates") rather than "kaya". "Kaya" alone can mean "group" or "collection" and at most appears to refer to the "five aggregates" but "kaya" would probably not mean "an individual". This said, I agree with the intent of the above quote, namely, the word "kaya" refers to much more than merely the physical body.

This type of mindfulness is particularly emphasized with reference to coming into contact with enticing or distracting objects. In the Janapada Sutta of the Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta in the Saṃyutta Nikāya, the Buddha made the following simile: Suppose a great crowd were to assemble to see the most beautiful girl of the country singing and dancing. A man would be ordered to carry around a bowl of oil full to the brim between the crowd and the girl, and he would be killed if he spilt even a little oil. The Buddha explained that “the bowl of oil full to the brim” represents kāyagatā sati (SN V 170), which is rendered as “mindfulness directed to the body” by Bodhi (2000 , p. 1649).

Interesting. It appears the "oil" refers to "mindfulness" and spilling a drop of oil means losing a moment of mindfulness. The bowl appears to refer to the mind. As for "giving attention" to the mind-body vs observing the dancing queen, the word used in the sutta is "manasikara" or "attention".

Would that person lose focus on that bowl, and negligently get distracted outside?”

api nu so puriso amuṃ telapattaṃ amanasikaritvā bahiddhā pamādaṃ āhareyyā”ti?

https://suttacentral.net/sn47.20/en/sujato

[Kumara]

This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan (2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated.

The above sounds like "sakkaya" ("identity with the aggregates") rather than "kaya". "Kaya" alone can mean "group" or "collection" and at most appears to refer to the "five aggregates" but "kaya" would probably not mean "an individual". This said, I agree with the intent of the above quote, namely, the word "kaya" refers to much more than merely the physical body.

[/quote]

The "sa(k)" prefix is "sakkāya" means "own", just as in "sahattha" meaning "(one's) own hand".

We're familiar with "sakkāya" from the phrase "sakkāyadiṭṭhi", which can quite literally be translated as "own-self view". We should bear in mind that in various languages in the world, incl. English, Pali, and Chinese, the word "body" (kāya, 身） can easily carry the meaning of "self".

[DooDoot]

The Buddha explained that “the bowl of oil full to the brim” represents kāyagatā sati (SN V 170)

I was walking alone down a forest road tonight and reflected on the above. I think it means "the mind full to the brim with mindfulness" that does not allow attention (manasikara) to stray to the outside. Then I reflected: it is not "mindfulness immersed in the body" but, instead, "the body immersed with mindfulness".

[coconut]

In http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/bodymind.html
I see Aj Thanissaro translating Kayagata-sati as "Mindfulness Immersed in the Body"

Seems like a stretch to me to translate "gata" as "immersed". What do you think?

What alternatives do you propose Bhante?

'Frank'ly, I'm still looking into this. Meanwhile you may find this (which I've just found) useful:

This type of mindfulness is particularly emphasized with reference to coming into contact with enticing or distracting objects. In the Janapada Sutta of the Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta in the Saṃyutta Nikāya, the Buddha made the following simile: Suppose a great crowd were to assemble to see the most beautiful girl of the country singing and dancing. A man would be ordered to carry around a bowl of oil full to the brim between the crowd and the girl, and he would be killed if he spilt even a little oil. The Buddha explained that “the bowl of oil full to the brim” represents kāyagatā sati (SN V 170), which is rendered as “mindfulness directed to the body” by Bodhi (2000 , p. 1649). This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan ( 2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated. The term kāyagatā sati is synonymous with kāyasati (mindfulness of one’s sentient organism) that appears in the Dukkhadhamma Sutta quoted above (see Kuan 2008 , pp. 43–44).

(From Mindfulness in Similes in Early Buddhist Literature by Tse-fu Kuan)

The emphasis is not on the bowl being full, it's on preventing the oil from spilling. You prevent the oil from spilling by knowing what you're going to do before you do it. You also don't let whatever that arises break your focus from knowing what you will do before you do it, whether emotion or perception.

For example like a huge wave of emotion arising does not disturb your knowing. Neither does mental imagery disturb your knowing.

The key component is knowing what you're going to do before you do it, hence mindfulness servers to protect you from unwholesome action.

It is the switching from auto pilot impulsivity to intentional action.

The causal chain starts with sanna (mental imagery) which develops into thoughts, speech, action, lifestyle, etc.. If you are able to know even before sanna arises, then you will never be unwholesome.

“Bhikkhus, this is how Nanda guards the doors of the sense faculties: If he needs to look to the east, he does so after he has fully considered the matter and clearly comprehends it thus: ‘When I look to the east, bad unwholesome states of longing and dejection will not flow in upon me.’ If he needs to look to the west … to the north … to the south … to look up … to look down … to survey the intermediate directions, he does so after he has fully considered the matter and clearly comprehends it thus: ‘When I look to the intermediate directions, bad unwholesome states of longing and dejection will not flow in upon me.’ That is how Nanda guards the doors of the sense faculties.

...

“This is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension: Nanda knows feelings as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows perceptions as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear; he knows thoughts as they arise, as they remain present, as they disappear. That is Nanda’s mindfulness and clear comprehension.

Nanda always knows what he's going to do before he does it, even when waves (emotion, perception/mental imagery, thoughts) arise and try to make him spill his oil.

Therefore right view is all one needs, if one understands the proper practice, then one does not need to manually develop the other factors of the path, since if you are able to prevent sanna (mental imagery) from developing further, the rest of the path is handled.

If one has mastered proper attention and intention, then they are mindful in everything, and in every posture or movement.

Arahants have overcome unvirtuous mental images:

Friend, in the eighty years since I went forth [into the ascetic life] I do not recall a sensuous mental image having ever arisen in me.

Asīti me āvuso kassapa vassāni pabbajitassa nābhijānāmi kāmasaññaṃ uppannapubbaṃ.

— M.3.125



This is in accordance with the fact that:

All spiritually unwholesome factors stem from uninsightfulness into reality, emanate from uninsightfulness into reality, and all are abolished when uninsightfulness into reality is abolished.

Evameva kho bhikkhave ye keci akusalā dhammā sabbe te avijjāmūlakā avijjāsamosaraṇā. Avijjāsamugghātā sabbe te samugghātaṃ gacchanti.

— S.2.263
Arahants perceive without mental images

Arahants perceive objects as they are, without any associated mental images:

He does not conceive the slightest mental image regarding what is seen, heard, sensed, or cognised.

Tassīdha diṭṭhe vā sute mute vā pakappitā natthi aṇu pi saññā.

— Sn.v.802
Arahants are susceptible to virtuous mental images

Arahants are nonetheless susceptible to virtuous mental images:

Just as the Veramba wind blows clouds in the rainy season, so [in the city of Veramba] mental images connected with physical seclusion [would] overwhelm me.

Yathā abbhāni verambo vāto nudati pāvuse
Saññā me abhikīranti vivekapaṭisaṃyuttā.

— Th.v.589
The Buddha was fully conscious of mental images

The Buddha was fully conscious of mental images:

In this regard, Ānanda, the arising, continuance, and vanishing of sense impressions (vedanā), mental images (saññā), and thoughts (vitakkā) is known by the Perfect One.

Idhānanda tathāgatassa viditā vedanā uppajjanti. Viditā upaṭṭhahanti. Viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Viditā saññā uppajjanti viditā upaṭṭhahanti. Viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti. Viditā vitakkā uppajjanti. Viditā upaṭṭhahanti. Viditā abbhatthaṃ gacchanti.

— M.3.124



[Question:] 'For one attained to what state does bodily form vanish? Whether pleasant or painful, how does it vanish? Tell me this, how does it vanish? My objective is that we should know this.'

Kathaṃ sametassa vibhoti rūpaṃ sukhaṃ dukkhaṃ vāpi kathaṃ vibhoti
Etaṃ me pabrūhi yathā vibhoti taṃ jāniyāmāti me mano ahu

— Sn.v.873

[Answer:] 'He does not perceive mental images [of what is seen, heard, sensed, or cognised]. He does not perceive [what is seen, heard, sensed, or cognised] with deranged perception. He is not without perception. He does not perceive what has vanished. For one arrived at such a state, bodily form vanishes. Mental images are indeed the source of entrenched conception.'

Na saññasaññī na visaññasaññī no pi asaññī na vibhūtasaññī
Evaṃ sametassa vibhoti rūpaṃ saññānidānā hi papañcasaṅkhā.

— Sn.v.874

[frank k]

quoting scholar...: In the Janapada Sutta of the Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta in the Saṃyutta Nikāya, the Buddha made the following simile: Suppose a great crowd were to assemble to see the most beautiful girl of the country singing and dancing. A man would be ordered to carry around a bowl of oil full to the brim between the crowd and the girl, and he would be killed if he spilt even a little oil. The Buddha explained that “the bowl of oil full to the brim” represents kāyagatā sati (SN V 170), which is rendered as “mindfulness directed to the body” by Bodhi (2000 , p. 1649). This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan ( 2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated. The term kāyagatā sati is synonymous with kāyasati (mindfulness of one’s sentient organism) that appears in the Dukkhadhamma Sutta quoted above (see Kuan 2008 , pp. 43–44).
...

While I don't disagree that all 4sp are necessary to perform kayagatasati (KGS), I believe there is an emphasis on involving attention on the physical body, and not just generically referring to 4sp.
Here are all the pali sutta references to KGS:
http://lucid24.org/sted/kayagatasati/index.html

Especially check out (AN 1.583 This is 2nd jhāna here, done in conjunction with kāyagatā-sati)

“Eka-dhamme, bhikkhave, bhāvite bahulīkate
“When one ☸Dharma, monks, is developed and cultivated
kāyopi passambhati, cittampi passambhati,
the body and mind become pacified,
vitakka-vicārā-pi vūpasammanti,
thinking and considering settle down,
kevalāpi vijjābhāgiyā dhammā
and all of the ☸Dharmas that play a part in realization
Bhāvanā-pāripūriṃ gacchanti.
are developed to perfection.
Katamasmiṃ Eka-dhamme?
What one ☸Dharma?
kāya-gatāya satiyā.
body-immersed remembering.

That should remind people of another practice that is bodily sensation immersed known for cutting off vitakka and vicara, anapanassati breath meditation.

So anapana, KGS, chapanaka sutta (6 animals restrained by KGS as post), janapada (beauty queen, balancing bowl of oil), all feature continuous careful attention to physical body awareness.

If one were to take KGS as just another way of saying kaya doing 4sp satipatthana, obviously breath meditation and janapada and chapanaka only doing citta anupassana wouldn't work for most people. The untrained mind trying to watch itself gets lost in confused thoughts and doesn't even know it's getting lost. KGS is giving you a concrete anchoring reference so it's clear when the mind has wandered off from the anchor.

[Pulsar]

Kumara wrote

From the above:
This Pali expression kāyagatā sati should not be construed as mindfulness directed to the physical body, because kāya here refers not to the physical body alone, but to “an individual that is able to perceive through his senses” as Kuan (2008 , pp. 99–103) demonstrated.

Thank you for the above. The post made me revisit MN 119. What a difference it makes. When you read the Sutta Pitaka alongside BB's foot notes, here and there Kaya is translated as body of feelings, and body of perceptions (Sanna). I cannot give you an exact sutta number, I think it was somewhere in Anguttara Nikaya. It made a whole lot of sense to me.
The whole purpose of meditation is the reversal of Dependent origination. What point is there in meditating on a body? It makes soteriological sense to pay attention to what is happening at the sense bases located on the body. Phassa gives rise to Vedana and Sanna. Thank you again for this fabulous post.
Be well