Translating pañcupādānakkhandhā ???

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DooDoot
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Translating pañcupādānakkhandhā ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

This topic has probably been discussed before however i am struggling with pañcupādānakkhandhā.

From recollection, "upādāna" is a noun &/or adjective. It is not a verb and is not a past participle. Therefore, pañcupādānakkhandhā cannot be translated as: "attachment/attaching to the five aggregates" or "five clung-to aggregates".

It has been translated as following:

1. Five aggregates affected by clinging (Bodhi)
2. Five clinging aggregates (Thanissaro)
3. Five grasping aggregates (Sujato)
4. Five categories of clinging objects (Nanamoli)
5. Five aggregates subject to grasping (Piyadassi)
6. Five bundles of grasping-fuel (Harvey)

I have never been a fan of the above translations because, at least literally (except that of Harvey), they tend to emphasise the aggregates rather than the attachment.

Are the following translations valid?

1. The five attachments towards the aggregates?

2. The attachments towards the five aggregates

3. The five takings as one's own of the aggregates.

4. Any suggestions?

Thank you :smile:
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pitakele
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Re: Translating pañcupādānakkhandhā ???

Post by pitakele »

DooDoot wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 7:00 am
From recollection, "upādāna" is a noun &/or adjective. It is not a verb and is not a past participle. Therefore, cannot be translated as: "attachment/attaching to the five aggregates" or "five clung-to aggregates".
You need to determine what type of compound is being used - please see: https://dhamma.ru/paali/Pali_compounds. ... nds.htm#dg

There are two compounds in pañcupādānakkhandhā

1. pañcupādānakhandhā: pañca + upādānakhandhā is Digu (number + noun)

2. upādānakhandhā: upādāna + khandhā could be considered as Kammadhāraya (descriptive determinative) or Tappurisa (dependent determinate).
Kammadhāraya would typically translate 'grasping group' etc. However, Tappurisa probably makes more sense grammatically - literal translation 'groups of grasping' etc. Other examples of Tappurisa in 4NT are 'dukkhasamudaya 'origin of suffering' & dukkhanirodha 'cessation of suffering'.

Edit: The relationship between upādāna & khandha is typically explained in this sutta
“Bhikkhus, I will teach you the things that can be clung to and the clinging. Listen to that….“And what, bhikkhus, are the things that can be clung to, and what is the clinging? Form, bhikkhus, is a thing that can be clung to; the desire and lust for it is the clinging there. Feeling …Perception … Volitional formations … Consciousness is a thing that can be clung to; the desire and lust for it is the clinging there. These are called the things that can be clung to, and this the clinging.” S, III, 121, 9
Last edited by pitakele on Sat Mar 27, 2021 12:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Translating pañcupādānakkhandhā ???

Post by DooDoot »

pitakele wrote: Fri Mar 26, 2021 11:57 pm However, Tappurisa makes more sense grammatically - genitive case literally translated 'groups of grasping/clinging' etc.
Thank you Pitakele. I was hoping for the above however, now considering, it appears SN 22.48 rules this out. It appears the emphasis is on the khandhas rather than on the grasping. SN 22.48 says:
And what are the five grasping aggregates?
Katame ca, bhikkhave, pañcupādānakkhandhā?

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, which is accompanied by defilements and is prone to being grasped: this is called the aggregate of form connected with grasping.

Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ …pe… yaṁ dūre santike vā sāsavaṁ upādāniyaṁ, ayaṁ vuccati rūpupādānakkhandho.

Any kind of feeling at all …
Yā kāci vedanā …pe… yā dūre santike vā sāsavā upādāniyā, ayaṁ vuccati vedanupādānakkhandho.

Any kind of perception at all …
Yā kāci saññā …pe… yā dūre santike vā sāsavā upādāniyā, ayaṁ vuccati saññupādānakkhandho.

Any kind of choices at all …
Ye keci saṅkhārā …pe… sāsavā upādāniyā, ayaṁ vuccati saṅkhārupādānakkhandho.

Any kind of consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, which is accompanied by defilements and is prone to being grasped: this is called the aggregate of consciousness connected with grasping.

Yaṁ kiñci viññāṇaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ …pe… yaṁ dūre santike vā sāsavaṁ upādāniyaṁ, ayaṁ vuccati viññāṇupādānakkhandho.

These are called the five grasping aggregates.”
Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, pañcupādānakkhandhā”ti.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/sujato
In other words, I think this topic is invalid and is now closed.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
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