Hi pali teachers ,
Are both the same ?
Pls explain how both differs ?
Does samma sati include sampajañña ?
Thanks
sati n samma sati
Re: sati n samma sati
I am not a Pali expert by my understanding is that Sati is a Cetasika which is in every consciousness.
Samma Sati is the Ariya Magga.
In Pali where it says Sati it denotes Samma Sati.
Samma Sati is the Ariya Magga.
In Pali where it says Sati it denotes Samma Sati.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.htmlMindfulness (sati): this is alertness, which makes us aware of what is happening to us, from moment to moment, through the five physical senses and the mind. Mindfulness is essential to insight meditation, when it must be conjoined with a clear comprehension of the suitability, purpose, and conformity with reality of any action. Then it is called right mindfulness (sammaa sati). Usually the average person acts without any form of mindfulness; his acts are prompted by force of habit. Right mindfulness has two functions: one is to increase the power of recollection and the other is to evaluate what is wholesome and what is unwholesome. Right mindfulness is a spiritual faculty that maintains a proper balance of the other faculties — faith, energy, concentration and wisdom.
Last edited by SarathW on Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: sati n samma sati
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: sati n samma sati
1. Citta, mind or consciousness, defined as that which knows or experiences an object. Citta occurs as distinct momentary states of consciousness.
2. Cetasikas, the mental factors that arise and occur along with the cittas.
Normally citta or mind / mano is denote as the sense base . Why it state as "cittas" ? How many citta then ?
I think to avoid confusion one should not apply vinnana to mind as sense base .
No bashing No gossiping
Re: sati n samma sati
If I am not wrong I think in Sutta they refers toa follows.asahi wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 am1. Citta, mind or consciousness, defined as that which knows or experiences an object. Citta occurs as distinct momentary states of consciousness.
2. Cetasikas, the mental factors that arise and occur along with the cittas.
Normally citta or mind / mano is denote as the sense base . Why it state as "cittas" ? How many citta then ?
I think to avoid confusion one should not apply vinnana to mind as sense base .
Citta = Citta (eg: Cittanupassana)
Cetasika = Dhamma
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: sati n samma sati
Sounds wrong. For example, being conscious of the noise of sudden unexpected thunder i imagine involves no mindfulness.
Its Abhidhamma jargon for those who believe they have "understanding".
Indeed. Well-spoken.
I think you are not not wrong.
Sati means to remember, bring to mind & keep in mind. Mindfulness is most clearly defined in SN 46.3, MN 117 & SN 48.10,
Many suttas, such as MN 117, refer to "wrong mindfulness" ("miccha sati") & "Right Mindfulness" ("samma sati").
For example, if you want to murder a person by cutting their throat with a knife, you must remember to keep silent so you do not alert your intended victim. This remembering & keeping in mind what you must do is mindfulness; however, here, it is wrong mindfulness.
Samma sati means "right mindfulness". "Right" is according to Nibbana. Therefore, "right mindfulness" means to remember to keep the mind free from craving & other unwholesome states that are obstacles to Nibbana.
Samma sati always includes sampajana. "Sam" means "co-joined"; although it can also mean "thorough" or "complete". Sampajana refers to a specific understanding/wisdom required for a situation. For example, the specific understanding required to overcome sexual lust may be different to the specific understanding required to develop jhana.
Sati-sampajana also means bringing to mind past learned knowledge or wisdom. In other words, it does not refer to wisdom developed via direct present moment insight.
The Abhidhamma defines the faculty of mindfulness as follows:
It appears the Abhidhamma is confused above, not so much in the definition of (right) mindfulness above, but in its lumping together of all "faculties" in its Analysis of the Faculties; regardless of their wholesome, unwholesome or neutral (generic) nature. This is confusing.Therein what is faculty of mindfulness? That which is mindfulness, constant mindfulness, recollection, mindfulness, act of remembering, bearing in mind, non-superficiality, non-forgetfulness, mindfulness, faculty of mindfulness, power of mindfulness, right mindfulness. This is called faculty of mindfulness.
https://suttacentral.net/vb5/en/thittila
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: sati n samma sati
DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:56 am ...
Sati means to remember, bring to mind & keep in mind. Mindfulness is most clearly defined in SN 46.3, MN 117 & SN 48.10,
Many suttas, such as MN 117, refer to "wrong mindfulness" ("miccha sati") & "Right Mindfulness" ("samma sati").
For example, if you want to murder a person by cutting their throat with a knife, you must remember to keep silent so you do not alert your intended victim. This remembering & keeping in mind what you must do is mindfulness; however, here, it is wrong mindfulness.
Samma sati means "right mindfulness". "Right" is according to Nibbana. Therefore, "right mindfulness" means to remember to keep the mind free from craving & other unwholesome states that are obstacles to Nibbana.
Samma sati always includes sampajana. "Sam" means "co-joined"; although it can also mean "thorough" or "complete". Sampajana refers to a specific understanding/wisdom required for a situation. For example, the specific understanding required to overcome sexual lust may be different to the specific understanding required to develop jhana.
Sati-sampajana also means bringing to mind past learned knowledge or wisdom. In other words, it does not refer to wisdom developed via direct present moment insight.
...
(And I like the murdered example)
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Re: sati n samma sati
Ok but does sati and samma sati usage in the sutta are both interchangeable ?DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:56 am
Sati means to remember, bring to mind & keep in mind. Mindfulness is most clearly defined in SN 46.3, MN 117 & SN 48.10,
Many suttas, such as MN 117, refer to "wrong mindfulness" ("miccha sati") & "Right Mindfulness" ("samma sati").
Samma sati means "right mindfulness". "Right" is according to Nibbana. Therefore, "right mindfulness" means to remember to keep the mind free from craving & other unwholesome states that are obstacles to Nibbana.
Samma sati always includes sampajana. "Sam" means "co-joined"; although it can also mean "thorough" or "complete". Sampajana refers to a specific understanding/wisdom required for a situation. For example, the specific understanding required to overcome sexual lust may be different to the specific understanding required to develop jhana.
Sati-sampajana also means bringing to mind past learned knowledge or wisdom. In other words, it does not refer to wisdom developed via direct present moment insight.
No bashing No gossiping
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6491
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: sati n samma sati
Sati is a beautiful cetasika, not a universal. It's not found, for example, in the five sense-door consciousnesses or in any akusala consciousness.
Not always. For example, the Buddha said that Alara and Uddaka had sati, but clearly it wasn't sammā.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: sati n samma sati
Thank you, Bhante for the correction. It is my usual negligence. :embarrassed:Dhammanando wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:45 amSati is a beautiful cetasika, not a universal. It's not found, for example, in the five sense-door consciousnesses or in any akusala consciousness.
Not always. For example, the Buddha said that Alara and Uddaka had sati, but clearly it wasn't sammā.
However, could you explain why sense-door consciousness does not have Sati?
Another question can't we have Sati in unwholesome consciousness the same way as concentration. (Ekagata)?
Isn't there Micca Sati?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: sati n samma sati
I think it 1st must be learned what 'sati' is. Obviously, if the above question is asked, what sati is is unknown.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6491
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: sati n samma sati
In a five-sense-door process, such as seeing or hearing, nothing moral or immoral is taking place. The cittas in such a process are not accompanied by any beautiful cetasikas or any unwholesome cetasikas. The only cetasikas present are those that are needed for a bare cognizance of the object.
It's in the ensuing mind-door process that morally significant cetasikas, such as sati or paññā or greed or hate come into play.
No. Ekaggatā is a universal cetasika and therefore in itself morally neutral. It comes to be reckoned as wholesome or unwholesome or undeclared according to the moral tone of the citta in which it arises.
That's not the case with sati, which is intrinsically beautiful and as such cannot co-exist with the unwholesome cetasikas present in, say, a greed-rooted consciousness.
The Suttas do speak of micchā-sati, but in the Abhidharma this is not identified with sati cetasika
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: sati n samma sati
Dhammanando wrote: ↑Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pmIn a five-sense-door process, such as seeing or hearing, nothing moral or immoral is taking place. The cittas in such a process are not accompanied by any beautiful cetasikas or any unwholesome cetasikas. The only cetasikas present are those that are needed for a bare cognizance of the object.
It's in the ensuing mind-door process that morally significant cetasikas, such as sati or paññā or greed or hate come into play.
No. Ekaggatā is a universal cetasika and therefore in itself morally neutral. It comes to be reckoned as wholesome or unwholesome or undeclared according to the moral tone of the citta in which it arises.
That's not the case with sati, which is intrinsically beautiful and as such cannot co-exist with the unwholesome cetasikas present in, say, a greed-rooted consciousness.
The Suttas do speak of micchā-sati, but in the Abhidharma this is not identified with sati cetasika
Did Alara and Uddaka had Samma Sati or Michha Sati?Not always. For example, the Buddha said that Alara and Uddaka had sati, but clearly it wasn't sammā.
In my opinion it is Michha Sati even though it is beautiful.
Another question is that instruction to Daruchiriya, "seen is only the seen".
Is that Sati?
Isn't Cittanupassana is Sati?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6491
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: sati n samma sati
I don't think either term is applicable. The Pāsarāsisutta says that the Bodhisatta's teachers had the faculty of mindfulness (satindriya) and the rest of the five faculties. The said faculties were sufficiently well developed to make possible the attainment of the highest and second highest of the formless attainments, but not sufficiently for attainment of the ariyan path.
Since their satindriya didn่t bring them to the ariyan path it doesn't count as the sammāsati of the ariyan path. But since it did bring them to the formless attainments it cannot have been something unwholesome and so couldn't have been micchāsati.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)