sati n samma sati

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asahi
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sati n samma sati

Post by asahi »

Hi pali teachers ,

Are both the same ?
Pls explain how both differs ?
Does samma sati include sampajañña ?


Thanks
SarathW
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by SarathW »

I am not a Pali expert by my understanding is that Sati is a Cetasika which is in every consciousness.
Samma Sati is the Ariya Magga.
In Pali where it says Sati it denotes Samma Sati.
Mindfulness (sati): this is alertness, which makes us aware of what is happening to us, from moment to moment, through the five physical senses and the mind. Mindfulness is essential to insight meditation, when it must be conjoined with a clear comprehension of the suitability, purpose, and conformity with reality of any action. Then it is called right mindfulness (sammaa sati). Usually the average person acts without any form of mindfulness; his acts are prompted by force of habit. Right mindfulness has two functions: one is to increase the power of recollection and the other is to evaluate what is wholesome and what is unwholesome. Right mindfulness is a spiritual faculty that maintains a proper balance of the other faculties — faith, energy, concentration and wisdom.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el322.html
Last edited by SarathW on Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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asahi
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:21 am I am not a Pali expert by my understanding is that Sati is a Cetasika which is in every consciousness.
Samma Sati is the Ariya Magga.
In Pali where it says Sati it denotes Samma Sati.
Cetasika means what ?
SarathW
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by SarathW »

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by asahi »

1. Citta, mind or consciousness, defined as that which knows or experiences an object. Citta occurs as distinct momentary states of consciousness.
2. Cetasikas, the mental factors that arise and occur along with the cittas.

Normally citta or mind / mano is denote as the sense base . Why it state as "cittas" ? How many citta then ?
I think to avoid confusion one should not apply vinnana to mind as sense base .
SarathW
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 am
1. Citta, mind or consciousness, defined as that which knows or experiences an object. Citta occurs as distinct momentary states of consciousness.
2. Cetasikas, the mental factors that arise and occur along with the cittas.

Normally citta or mind / mano is denote as the sense base . Why it state as "cittas" ? How many citta then ?
I think to avoid confusion one should not apply vinnana to mind as sense base .
If I am not wrong I think in Sutta they refers toa follows.
Citta = Citta (eg: Cittanupassana)
Cetasika = Dhamma
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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DooDoot
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:21 am I am not a Pali expert by my understanding is that Sati is a Cetasika which is in every consciousness.
Sounds wrong. For example, being conscious of the noise of sudden unexpected thunder i imagine involves no mindfulness.
asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:23 am Cetasika means what ?
Its Abhidhamma jargon for those who believe they have "understanding".
asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:50 am I think to avoid confusion one should not apply vinnana to mind as sense base .
Indeed. Well-spoken.
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:54 am If I am not wrong I think....
I think you are not not wrong.
asahi wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 8:59 am Are both the same ?
Pls explain how both differs ?
Does samma sati include sampajañña ?
Sati means to remember, bring to mind & keep in mind. Mindfulness is most clearly defined in SN 46.3, MN 117 & SN 48.10,

Many suttas, such as MN 117, refer to "wrong mindfulness" ("miccha sati") & "Right Mindfulness" ("samma sati").

For example, if you want to murder a person by cutting their throat with a knife, you must remember to keep silent so you do not alert your intended victim. This remembering & keeping in mind what you must do is mindfulness; however, here, it is wrong mindfulness.

Samma sati means "right mindfulness". "Right" is according to Nibbana. Therefore, "right mindfulness" means to remember to keep the mind free from craving & other unwholesome states that are obstacles to Nibbana.

Samma sati always includes sampajana. "Sam" means "co-joined"; although it can also mean "thorough" or "complete". Sampajana refers to a specific understanding/wisdom required for a situation. For example, the specific understanding required to overcome sexual lust may be different to the specific understanding required to develop jhana.

Sati-sampajana also means bringing to mind past learned knowledge or wisdom. In other words, it does not refer to wisdom developed via direct present moment insight.

The Abhidhamma defines the faculty of mindfulness as follows:
Therein what is faculty of mindfulness? That which is mindfulness, constant mindfulness, recollection, mindfulness, act of remembering, bearing in mind, non-superficiality, non-forgetfulness, mindfulness, faculty of mindfulness, power of mindfulness, right mindfulness. This is called faculty of mindfulness.

https://suttacentral.net/vb5/en/thittila
It appears the Abhidhamma is confused above, not so much in the definition of (right) mindfulness above, but in its lumping together of all "faculties" in its Analysis of the Faculties; regardless of their wholesome, unwholesome or neutral (generic) nature. This is confusing.
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mjaviem
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by mjaviem »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:56 am ...
Sati means to remember, bring to mind & keep in mind. Mindfulness is most clearly defined in SN 46.3, MN 117 & SN 48.10,

Many suttas, such as MN 117, refer to "wrong mindfulness" ("miccha sati") & "Right Mindfulness" ("samma sati").

For example, if you want to murder a person by cutting their throat with a knife, you must remember to keep silent so you do not alert your intended victim. This remembering & keeping in mind what you must do is mindfulness; however, here, it is wrong mindfulness.

Samma sati means "right mindfulness". "Right" is according to Nibbana. Therefore, "right mindfulness" means to remember to keep the mind free from craving & other unwholesome states that are obstacles to Nibbana.

Samma sati always includes sampajana. "Sam" means "co-joined"; although it can also mean "thorough" or "complete". Sampajana refers to a specific understanding/wisdom required for a situation. For example, the specific understanding required to overcome sexual lust may be different to the specific understanding required to develop jhana.

Sati-sampajana also means bringing to mind past learned knowledge or wisdom. In other words, it does not refer to wisdom developed via direct present moment insight.
...
:goodpost:
(And I like the murdered example)
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asahi
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by asahi »

DooDoot wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 10:56 am
Sati means to remember, bring to mind & keep in mind. Mindfulness is most clearly defined in SN 46.3, MN 117 & SN 48.10,

Many suttas, such as MN 117, refer to "wrong mindfulness" ("miccha sati") & "Right Mindfulness" ("samma sati").


Samma sati means "right mindfulness". "Right" is according to Nibbana. Therefore, "right mindfulness" means to remember to keep the mind free from craving & other unwholesome states that are obstacles to Nibbana.

Samma sati always includes sampajana. "Sam" means "co-joined"; although it can also mean "thorough" or "complete". Sampajana refers to a specific understanding/wisdom required for a situation. For example, the specific understanding required to overcome sexual lust may be different to the specific understanding required to develop jhana.

Sati-sampajana also means bringing to mind past learned knowledge or wisdom. In other words, it does not refer to wisdom developed via direct present moment insight.
Ok but does sati and samma sati usage in the sutta are both interchangeable ?
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Dhammanando
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:21 am I am not a Pali expert by my understanding is that Sati is a Cetasika which is in every consciousness.
Sati is a beautiful cetasika, not a universal. It's not found, for example, in the five sense-door consciousnesses or in any akusala consciousness.
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:21 am In Pali where it says Sati it denotes Samma Sati.
Not always. For example, the Buddha said that Alara and Uddaka had sati, but clearly it wasn't sammā.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
SarathW
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 8:45 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:21 am I am not a Pali expert by my understanding is that Sati is a Cetasika which is in every consciousness.
Sati is a beautiful cetasika, not a universal. It's not found, for example, in the five sense-door consciousnesses or in any akusala consciousness.
SarathW wrote: Sun Apr 18, 2021 9:21 am In Pali where it says Sati it denotes Samma Sati.
Not always. For example, the Buddha said that Alara and Uddaka had sati, but clearly it wasn't sammā.
Thank you, Bhante for the correction. It is my usual negligence. :embarrassed:
However, could you explain why sense-door consciousness does not have Sati?
Another question can't we have Sati in unwholesome consciousness the same way as concentration. (Ekagata)?
Isn't there Micca Sati?
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:32 am However, could you explain why sense-door consciousness does not have Sati?
I think it 1st must be learned what 'sati' is. Obviously, if the above question is asked, what sati is is unknown.
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:32 am However, could you explain why sense-door consciousness does not have Sati?
In a five-sense-door process, such as seeing or hearing, nothing moral or immoral is taking place. The cittas in such a process are not accompanied by any beautiful cetasikas or any unwholesome cetasikas. The only cetasikas present are those that are needed for a bare cognizance of the object.

It's in the ensuing mind-door process that morally significant cetasikas, such as sati or paññā or greed or hate come into play.
SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:32 amAnother question can't we have Sati in unwholesome consciousness the same way as concentration. (Ekagata)?
Isn't there Micca Sati?
No. Ekaggatā is a universal cetasika and therefore in itself morally neutral. It comes to be reckoned as wholesome or unwholesome or undeclared according to the moral tone of the citta in which it arises.

That's not the case with sati, which is intrinsically beautiful and as such cannot co-exist with the unwholesome cetasikas present in, say, a greed-rooted consciousness.

The Suttas do speak of micchā-sati, but in the Abhidharma this is not identified with sati cetasika
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
SarathW
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by SarathW »

Dhammanando wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:59 pm
SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:32 am However, could you explain why sense-door consciousness does not have Sati?
In a five-sense-door process, such as seeing or hearing, nothing moral or immoral is taking place. The cittas in such a process are not accompanied by any beautiful cetasikas or any unwholesome cetasikas. The only cetasikas present are those that are needed for a bare cognizance of the object.

It's in the ensuing mind-door process that morally significant cetasikas, such as sati or paññā or greed or hate come into play.
SarathW wrote: Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:32 amAnother question can't we have Sati in unwholesome consciousness the same way as concentration. (Ekagata)?
Isn't there Micca Sati?
No. Ekaggatā is a universal cetasika and therefore in itself morally neutral. It comes to be reckoned as wholesome or unwholesome or undeclared according to the moral tone of the citta in which it arises.

That's not the case with sati, which is intrinsically beautiful and as such cannot co-exist with the unwholesome cetasikas present in, say, a greed-rooted consciousness.

The Suttas do speak of micchā-sati, but in the Abhidharma this is not identified with sati cetasika
Not always. For example, the Buddha said that Alara and Uddaka had sati, but clearly it wasn't sammā.
Did Alara and Uddaka had Samma Sati or Michha Sati?
In my opinion it is Michha Sati even though it is beautiful.
Another question is that instruction to Daruchiriya, "seen is only the seen".
Is that Sati?
Isn't Cittanupassana is Sati?
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Dhammanando
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Re: sati n samma sati

Post by Dhammanando »

SarathW wrote: Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:47 am Did Alara and Uddaka had Samma Sati or Michha Sati?
I don't think either term is applicable. The Pāsarāsisutta says that the Bodhisatta's teachers had the faculty of mindfulness (satindriya) and the rest of the five faculties. The said faculties were sufficiently well developed to make possible the attainment of the highest and second highest of the formless attainments, but not sufficiently for attainment of the ariyan path.

Since their satindriya didn่t bring them to the ariyan path it doesn't count as the sammāsati of the ariyan path. But since it did bring them to the formless attainments it cannot have been something unwholesome and so couldn't have been micchāsati.
Anabhirati kho, āvuso, imasmiṃ dhammavinaye dukkhā, abhirati sukhā.

“To not delight in this dhammavinaya, friend, is painful; to delight in it is bliss.”
(Sukhasutta, AN 10:66)
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