Sanna is conceiving

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ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

Synonym=
- Words that can be interchanged.
- Equivalent words - (nothing to do with related)
- A word or phrase that has the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language.

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From the Cambridge dictionary:

- Conceptualize = to form an idea or principle in your mind.
- Conceive = to imagine something
- Imagine = to form or have a mental picture or idea of something.

That's the same (equivalent) , or "very" " "very" nearly meaning — not just "related" ; isn't it?

We don't need further "intellectual" "stimulation" (from the professionals, or poor amateurs) ; do we? .

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Again:
Based on the flow in the sutta/sutras (parallels):
https://justpaste.it/img/8b5aab8360db19 ... 2d3961.png
And the definitions of sañña, in the literature of the time of Buddha:
Saṃjñā
संज्ञा saṃjñā [ saṃ-√ jñā ]
- to agree together, be of the same opinion , be in harmony with RV. AV. VS. ŚBr
- to appoint , assign , intend (for any purpose) AitBr
- to acknowledge, recognize, own, Pāṇ
- to cause to be of the same opinion or agree together AV. ; AitBr
- to cause to acquiesce or agree in (euphemistically said of a sacrificial victim, which ought not to be led forcibly to its death but made to resign itself), ŚBr. ; GṛŚrS. ; MBh.
- agreement, mutual understanding, harmony, TBr. ; ŚBr.
- consciousness, clear knowledge or understanding or notion or conception, ŚBr.
however unpleasant it might seem to the professionals (or poor amateurs):

- After the transference (phasso) of an external feeling (vedanā), descending from the nāmarūpa nidāna,

- One has one's own feeling (vedanā in the vedanā nidāna) — (e. g. one gets the external feeling of a guy who plays guitar, and one starts making it his - [starting the "mine" process, that usually ends up with upādāna (appropriation of that feeling) - as in "this is my kind of chew" - "This is what I am"!].

- One acknowledges (sañña) that feeling, and agrees (or not) with it (sañña).

- One thinks/speculates [conceive/conceptualize] about it (vitakka/vicara), if ever — and puts a word on it (vaca) ["designates it"] , if it hasn't yet been done.

- One intends for the purpose (still sañña*), to have some more papañca/prapañca (= expansion/development of the visible world - ŚBr. ŚvetUp (of senses) — e.g.wants more music from that guitar player).
This can happen before vitakka/vicāra/vaca; if none of those are needed.

- leading to manosañcetana —> maintenance of viññāṇa —> etc. (the loop).

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As far as "clear knowledge or understanding or notion or conception" (ŚBr), is concerned - this would be the final (clear) acknowledgement (of truth/vijja), in the sankhāra nidāna, once reaching the higher "jhana" of the nevasaññanasaññayatana (neither acquiescence, nor non-acquiescence field of experience).

That is to say — Neither agrement with, (and intent towards) anything in, and below the sankhāra nidāna - nor non-agreement with (and non-intent towards) what's above; namely vijja (viz. nibbāna without remnant).
The last & only agreement, being to concede the truth of nibbāna.

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There is no conceptualizing/labeling in sañña.

MN 139 does not have a valid parallel.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 7:00 am Synonym=
- Words that can be interchanged.
- Equivalent words - (nothing to do with related)
- A word or phrase that has the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language.

------

From the Cambridge dictionary:

- Conceptualize = to form an idea or principle in your mind.
- Conceive = to imagine something
- Imagine = to form or have a mental picture or idea of something.

That's the same (equivalent) , or "very" " "very" nearly meaning — not just "related" ; isn't it?
I think the key word there is "nearly". Thesauruses do give synonyms, but they are not always interchangeable in the way that would make a sentence a tautology. In other words, they conform to everyday usage rather than the rigours of philosophical enquiry. In my mind whilst conceive and conceptualise are related I do not think we can interchange them without a loss of meaning. That being said, perhaps I am wrong. I'm sure if I am someone who is more astute regarding the nuances of the English language will correct me. Regardless, the point remains that sañña is involved with recognising and designating/labelling. In other words forming concepts in relation to sense experience. This is how we come to conceptually understand sense experience. Vitakka-vicara are to do with intentions, thoughts and analysis based on said concepts. In seeing a tree sañña conceptualises it as "tree" whilst vitakka-vicara would be intentions and thoughts based on "tree", which then proliferate off into "my tree" and so on.

"Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a condition for feeling. What you feel, you conceptualise/designate. What you conceptualise/designate, you think about. What you think about, you proliferate. What you proliferate about is the source from which a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions. This occurs with respect to sights known by the eye in the past, future, and present." MN 18

"Venerable friends, in dependence on the eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The coming together of these three things is contact. In dependence on contact there is feeling. If there is feeling, there is conceptualisation/designation; if there is conceptualisation/designation, there is intention; if there is intention, there is thought; if there is thought, there is differentiation." MA 115

Interesting to note in the pāli we have:

"phassapaccayā vedanā, yaṁ vedeti taṁ sañjānāti, yaṁ sañjānāti taṁ vitakketi, yaṁ vitakketi taṁ papañceti"

- After the transference (phasso) of an external feeling (vedanā), descending from the nāmarūpa nidāna,
Nāmarūpa descending merely means "that individual" or, as someone recently put it, "manifestation of name and appearance". In other words, it is simply an individual identifier. Its not some dravyasat, some real existent, which descends despite what your ontological realism says.
- One acknowledges (sañña) that feeling, and agrees (or not) with it (sañña).

- One thinks/speculates [conceive/conceptualize] about it (vitakka/vicara), if ever — and puts a word on it (vaca) ["designates it"] , if it hasn't yet been done.
Quite wrong, as per everything else you say. Its ok though. In a months time you will have invented an even more fantastical and abstract system, like what you did under your other aliases of Cobwith or Suci1 on SuttaCentral. For me, however, system builders are of little interest I'm afraid. I think the Buddha would have agreed.
There is no conceptualizing/labeling in sañña.
Quite wrong.
MN 139 does not have a valid parallel.
You so eagerly provided it to us. What does not have a valid parallel is your definition of nāmarūpa. This is, what, the 5th time I've brought this up and you still have not addressed it? And you accuse me of evasion? Seems like projection, which would be understandable given how inconsistent your approach seems to be. Dodgy definitions from a dodgy amateur Indologist with a dodgy methodology.
Again:
Based on the flow in the sutta/sutras (parallels):
https://justpaste.it/img/8b5aab8360db19 ... 2d3961.png
And the definitions of sañña, in the literature of the time of Buddha:
I'm sorry I'm just not interested in your personal Sarvāstivādin influenced Abhidharma which fails your own criteria of what is and is not early Buddhism.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

To form an idea or principle in your mind (aka conceptualize).
I see nothing of the sort in MN 139, or in sañña for that matter.
Either saṃ-jānanti is a bad typo - or this extract is dubious.
In either case => bad parallel.

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When it comes to parallels, I only have(like SN 12.2\Sa 298 the choice to, either make the definitions of nama and cittasankhara null and void - or make them complementary.
In other words, if there is no parallel, then one should drop both sutta & sutra, as dubious.
However, if there is a logic behind the discrepancies between the two texts - and that it could be complementary - then I would keep both definitions.
You shouldn't be so sectarian in your judgment.

The problem resides in that some professionals of the Pali and Chinese texts, base their fallacious logic, on the dubious premise that the Sarvāstivādans did edit SA 298 their sutras, under the influence of their Abhidharma.
That's pretentious erudition.

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I do not answer professionals of any kind, that do not provide the forum with extracts of the parallels, or whatever texts they reference. Which allow me to stop reading nonsense.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:14 pm ...


To form an idea or principle in your mind (aka conceptualize).
I see nothing of the sort in MN 139, or in sañña for that matter.
Either saṃ-jānanti is a bad typo - or this extract is dubious.
"A tree" is an idea. Both are great parallels.
When it comes to parallels, I only have(like SN 12.2\Sa 298 the choice to, either make the definitions of nama and cittasankhara null and void - or make them complementary.
In other words, if there is no parallel, then one should drop both sutta & sutra, as dubious.
However, if there is a logic behind the discrepancies between the two texts - and that it could be complementary - then I would keep both definitions.
You shouldn't be so sectarian in your judgment.

The problem resides in that some professionals of the Pali and Chinese texts, base their fallacious logic, on the dubious premise that the Sarvāstivādans did edit SA 298 their sutras, under the influence of their Abhidharma.
That's pretentious erudition.
What an utterly deceitful person you are. When I provide a sutta, you complain that it has no parallel and so reject it outright with no further qualification other than it having no parallel. In another topic a while back you stated that not only suttas but teachings themselves with direct parallels should be accepted. Now you have changed your whole methodology just so you can keep your 2 versions of nāmarūpa. You are merely backpedalling to save your own shoddy system. Seeing as how the inclusion of consciousness is quite clearly found in later Abhidhamma and commentarial texts, and seeing as how we see no evidence of said definition in the suttas and, as far as I am aware in the EA the more likely conclusion is that the agama in question has succumb to later editing to bring it in line with the Sarvāstivādin Abhidharma. It fails your own test, but you accept it because it suits your needs. Regardless I'm pretty much done. You add little to any conversation, bar an overuse of exclamation marks. It seems since your time as Cobwith you haven't learnt much at all, as back then you still spouted incoherent rubbish. I'll simply have to ignore you from now on. Life is too short to waste it on such interactions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

As I have already and always said:

- Suttas with no parallel are the worst case.

- Suttas with dubious parallels are to be ignored.

- Suttas and sutras that differ, but can have complementary material, should be used - providing there is a logic behind them (as SN 12.2/ SA 298, on the complementary definitions of nāmarūpa — or SN 41.6 (MN 44)/SA 568, on the complementary definitions of cittasaṅkhāra.
[something already explained on other threads].

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And things like: "there are many things in the later texts, that can be found also seldomly in the earlier - so one can conclude that the earlier has borrowed and been edited from the later" — should be utterly discarded and avoided — as surely as a snitch is a forever rat, that should be discarded and avoided at all cost !!!!!!!!!!©
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Assaji
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Assaji »

Hi Asahi,
asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:58 am Or sanna is recognising , labeling ?
It is rather "recognising":

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=2834

:anjali:
pegembara
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by pegembara »

DooDoot wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 9:14 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:29 am Sanna means knowing blue, red, etc from the eye-consciousness and knowing bitter taste, sweet taste, etc from tongue consciousness, etc and so on from all the senses. It is important to note Vedana and Sanna are conjoined hence difficult to know the difference. Refer to MN 43
:goodpost:
Sounds like re-cognizing(immediate recall) instead of just cognizing.
You still need to have learned what blue or red represents.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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DooDoot
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by DooDoot »

pegembara wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 3:07 am You still need to have learned what blue or red represents.
No. It is distinguishing differences in color or light waves (whatever). It is unrelated to learning or memory.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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pegembara
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by pegembara »

Noun of sanjanati.

Minute 1:45


Bhikkhu Bodhi states:

The characteristic of perception is the perceiving of the qualities of the object. Its function is to make a sign as a condition for perceiving again that "this is the same," or its function is recognizing what has been previously perceived. It becomes manifest as the interpreting of the object...by way of the features that had been apprehended. Its proximate cause is the object as it appears. Its procedure is compared to a carpenter's recognition of certain kinds of wood by the mark he has made on each.
To recognise what is blue instead of yellow. This is blue, that is yellow.
Orange tastes sour, candy is sweet.
Requires some kind of learning does it not?
According to the Theravada tradition, saññā experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies but it performs its own task: it 'perceives' or 'recognizes' the object and it 'marks' it so that it can be recognized again.[5]
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

MN139/MA169 (continued)

In fact, In MA 169, 說 is not really the translation of the MN 139's sañjānanti.
或說 just means: "he may say" (bowl) - or "he may say" (dish) , etc...

What "is known" (sañña/saṃjña), is not really adressed in the Chinese parallel.
People just "say" (說) (with all their strength), that what they designate, is the one & only true meaning. And that is the reason for arguments.
There is no acknowledgement, no understanding involved in that.
And definitely not, the process of both "conceptualization and designation" into that.

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In MN 139, the extract involving sañjānanti, should be translated as
In different localities they "know" it as a ‘dish’ [pāti], as a ‘bowl’ [patta], etc.
in the vein of the historical etymology found in the Shatapatha Brahmana (ŚBr.)
To Pathyâ Svasti he offers first (at the opening sacrifice): then the gods, through speech, saw their way in what was unknown to them - for by speech the confused becomes known. But now that it is known, he performs in the proper order.
sa śāryātebhyaścukrodha tebhyo 'saṃjñāṃ cakāra pitaiva putreṇa yuyudhe bhrātā bhrātrā
SBr. 4.1.5.3
THROUGH/BY MEANS of speech, the gods acknowledge; THROUGH/BY MEANS of speech, the gods know.
The Hotri pronounces (calls) a sacred formula (words), and the gods acknowledge the known through these words (call) - The gods "sañjānanti" (clearly know) by means of those words.

In this instance, sañña is about having "clear knowledge" THROUGH/BY MEANS of speech. Not about conceptualizing and designating.
The gods just acknowledge (and agree) with the call - and find the truth in it.

In the instance of MN 139, sañña is about acknowledging/knowing, what has been designated as dish or bowl.
It is about aknowledging the name "dish", as being related with the object presented.

Designation is samaññā.

- What's that?
- A dish.
- Ah, ok ! (sañña)
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
asahi
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by asahi »

So I guess apperception and recognising both can be taken similar to sanna . And for conceiving , thoughts or thinking would falls into sankhara group .

Thanks everyone
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