Sanna is conceiving

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asahi
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Sanna is conceiving

Post by asahi »

Hi Pali teachers

Does above correct ?
Or sanna is recognising , labeling ?

Thanks
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retrofuturist
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

The best single word translation is probably perception or apperception, depending on precisely what is being done.

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Paul. :)
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DooDoot
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by DooDoot »

Sanna is certainly recognizing , includes labeling, but it is probably best to not say it is conceiving. Conceiving best belongs to sankhara aggregate, imo.
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ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

On the dangers of professionalism, poor amateurism, and snitchism.

"The pali word used here “sañjānanti” is the 3rd person plural of sañña".

Here we clearly do not have a case of perception simpliciter. Instead sañjānanti is being used in naming or designating. In other words, in using concepts in relation to X rūpa
".


There is on this forum, a professional in Pali, Sanskrit and Veda who, not so long ago, gave away to us (snitched) this valuable information about the passage in MN 139:
Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call (sañjānanti) the same thing a “dish” (pāti) or they call it a “bowl” (patta) or they call it a “vessel” (vittha) or they call it a “saucer (sarava) or they call it a “pan” (dhāropa) or they call it a “pot” (poṇa) or they call it a “mug” (hana) or they call it a “basin” (pisīla).
From that on, the professional, made sañña the living proof that it was before anything, and with the much professional and chesty surety of his: "conception".

The problem is that "sañjānanti" does not come from sañña (saṃ-jñā) — but from saṃ-jan (√ jan))
— √ jan = to assign RV. VS.

"Sañjānanti” is NOT the 3rd person plural of sañña.

-----

Note that:

Saṃjñā
संज्ञा saṃjñā [ saṃ-√ jñā ]
- to agree together, be of the same opinion , be in harmony with RV. AV. VS. ŚBr
- to appoint , assign , intend (for any purpose) AitBr
- to acknowledge, recognize, own, Pāṇ
- to cause to be of the same opinion or agree together AV. ; AitBr
- to cause to acquiesce or agree in (euphemistically said of a sacrificial victim, which ought not to be led forcibly to its death but made to resign itself), ŚBr. ; GṛŚrS. ; MBh.
- agreement, mutual understanding, harmony, TBr. ; ŚBr.
- consciousness, clear knowledge or understanding or notion or conception, ŚBr.

can take all these meanings — although the last meaning is a bit too reinforced. That is to say that "clear knowledge" is a bit overstated. Acknowledgement (perception/apperception) is more likely what sañña is.
But sañña does not stop at that.
Sañña is also aquiescence (agreement) with the acknowledgement. And it also assumes "to intend for a purpose" — it is the door to cetana (manosañcetana).
https://justpaste.it/img/8b5aab8360db19 ... 2d3961.png

After the transference (phasso) of an external experience (vedanā), one has one's own feeling — (e. g. one gets the feeling of a guy who plays guitar, and one makes it his).
One acknowledges (sañña) that feeling, agrees (or not) with it (sañña) — thinks/speculates about it (vitakka) if ever — and intents for the purpose (sañña) to have some more papañca/prapañca (= expansion/development of the visible world - ŚBr. ŚvetUp (of senses) — e.g.wants more music from that guitar player) , leading to manosañcetana —> maintenance of viññāṇa —> etc.
.
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SarathW
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:58 am Hi Pali teachers

Does above correct ?
Or sanna is recognising , labeling ?

Thanks
I am not a Pali teacher but hope my input may help.
Sanna means knowing blue, red, etc from the eye-consciousness and knowing bitter taste, sweet taste, etc from tongue consciousness, etc and so on from all the senses.
It is important to note Vedana and Sanna are conjoined hence difficult to know the difference.
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by DooDoot »

SarathW wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 8:29 am Sanna means knowing blue, red, etc from the eye-consciousness and knowing bitter taste, sweet taste, etc from tongue consciousness, etc and so on from all the senses. It is important to note Vedana and Sanna are conjoined hence difficult to know the difference. Refer to MN 43
:goodpost:
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ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

Note that the "acknowledgement" of sañña is the somewhat acknowledgement of one's own feeling (not yet appropriation/upadana).

The first "acknowledgement", or perception per se, is done at the sense-consciousness level. Namely the knowledge of the external experience. The "made known".

At the level of sañña, what is "acknowledged" is not so much what is recognized , and made known internally. But more likely, what is "admitted".

Acknowledgement (and perception\apperception - mostly the latter, ) might be good definitions, as far as agreement/acquiescence is also concerned.

____________

Also note that the definitions of "sanna means knowing blue, red, etc. - and knowing bitter taste, sweet taste, etc", have very poor parallels.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:40 am ...
Sañjānāti is the verb of saññā.
Also note that the definitions of "sanna means knowing blue, red, etc. - and knowing bitter taste, sweet taste, etc", have very poor parallels
Just like your nāmarūpa which includes consciousness under nāma.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 3:58 am Hi Pali teachers

Does above correct ?
Or sanna is recognising , labeling ?

Thanks
I would define it as conceptualisation/designation. In English perception means simply being aware of something through the senses. There is said awareness already present in vedanā and viññāṇa. Viññāṇa is discriminatory awareness whilst vedanā is the hedonic tone. Saññā then must offer something other than simply "perception" which is already there. My reading is that it designates/conceptualises via labelling sense experience based on signs and marks. For example when seeing first light there is viññāṇa and vedanā of the experience, with saññā sañjānāti-ng "dawn".
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call (sañjānanti) the same thing a “dish” (pāti) or they call it a “bowl” (patta) or they call it a “vessel” (vittha) or they call it a “saucer (sarava) or they call it a “pan” (dhāropa) or they call it a “pot” (poṇa) or they call it a “mug” (hana) or they call it a “basin” (pisīla).
The problem is that the parallel has 說 ( = "to describe" [by speaking - shuō]) — not "conception" (abstract idea) .
Saṃ-jananti means to "assign", (pretty close to "describe by speaking".) Not conception (again, an abstract idea).

People are just "assigning" different words to the same thing - namely, they give different descriptions ("describing" with words) for the same thing.
The "plate", or "bowl", or "dish" is already there. You don't have to have a concept of it, everytime someone asks you: what is that? ".

So either saṃ-jānanti is a bad typo - or this extract is dubious.

Sañña as "clear conception" - ( the meaning it has in the pre-Buddhist literature) - is not really what is at stake in this extract.

The professionals, definitely should work more on parallels, (when they are not logically complementary - but a source of confusion).
.
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 1:45 pm
Here, bhikkhus, in different localities they call (sañjānanti) the same thing a “dish” (pāti) or they call it a “bowl” (patta) or they call it a “vessel” (vittha) or they call it a “saucer (sarava) or they call it a “pan” (dhāropa) or they call it a “pot” (poṇa) or they call it a “mug” (hana) or they call it a “basin” (pisīla).
The problem is that the parallel has 說 ( = "to describe" [by speaking - shuō]) — not "conception" (abstract idea) .
Saṃ-jananti means to "assign", (pretty close to "describe by speaking".) Not conception (again, an abstract idea).

People are just "assigning" different words to the same thing - namely, they give different descriptions ("describing" with words) for the same thing.
The "plate", or "bowl", or "dish" is already there. You don't have to have a concept of it, everytime someone asks you: what is that? ".

So either saṃ-jānanti is a bad typo - or this extract is dubious.

Sañña as "clear conception" - ( the meaning it has in the pre-Buddhist literature) - is not really what is at stake in this extract.

The professionals, definitely should work more on parallels, (when they are not logically complementary - but a source of confusion).
.
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So they are conceptualising/designating it, which is what I said. Thank you for showing that this interpretation has a perfect parallel, unlike your definition of nāmarūpa.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

On my first day of class, a long time ago, my teacher said to the students:
"Some people in this audience will understand quickly - some won't".
Then he added as a joke later on:
"Having a screwdriver, doesn't make you an engineer"- (joke on the side).

Some people don't understand quickly.

"Describing" (with words), has nothing to do with conceiving.

Some people want to put the naming process - (not just naming (aka describing with a word [vaca]) - where it does not take place. They want to put conception, where it does not take place.

They don't understand that quickly.

.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:55 pm On my first day of class, a long time ago, my teacher said to the students:
"Some people in this audience will understand quickly - some won't".
Then he added as a joke later on:
"Having a screwdriver, doesn't make you an engineer"- (joke on the side).

Some people don't understand quickly.

"Describing" (with words), has nothing to do with conceiving.

Some people want to put the naming process - (not just naming (aka describing with a word [vaca]) - where it does not take place. They want to put conception, where it does not take place.

They don't understand that quickly.

.
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Conceptualising and conceiving are two different things.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
ToVincent
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by ToVincent »

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ceptualize
(This dictionary being notorious in England, I would strongly advise anyone to consult it, before listening" deafly "to the professionals of the English language).
See the synonym.

Also:

- Verb: conceive = conceptualize = gestate

- Noun: conceiver - concept - conception

- Adjective: conceivable - conceptive

?!?!?!
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sanna is conceiving

Post by Ceisiwr »

ToVincent wrote: Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:44 pm https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... ceptualize
(This dictionary being notorious in England, I would strongly advise anyone to consult it, before listening" deafly "to the professionals of the English language).
See the synonym.

Also:

- Verb: conceive = conceptualize = gestate

- Noun: conceiver - concept - conception

- Adjective: conceivable - conceptive

?!?!?!
.
.
Related yet different. I would take "conceiving" to be more about abstract ideas whilst conceptualisation to be more understanding a present object or thought.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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