Jhānā

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
BrokenBones
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Re: Jhānā

Post by BrokenBones »

Aloka wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:28 am
BrokenBones wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:09 am I don't know the history of Coëmgenu insulting DD... but I'm guessing it wasn't one sided 🤣

It's a bit transparent to insult someone and then put in parentheses 'no offence intended'. :hug:
I wasn't insulting someone, I was making an observation and no offence was intended ...but perhaps you imagine yourself to be a mind reader, Mr/Mrs/Ms Bones ? :thinking:


:hello:
Ok :thumbsup:

I tried out that 'observation' on my partner... 'predictable & boring'....

🤕

They must think they're a mind reader :quote:
sphairos
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Re: Jhānā

Post by sphairos »

Jhānā is Ok, if you want to say "in jhānas" you can go directly wih jhānesu :smile:
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How true are your ways?
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhānā

Post by Coëmgenu »

Whenever we have something like two ways to pluralize, we have to wonder the reason. The alternative declensions for rūpa and jhāna indicate to me that likely there was at one point instability between the boundaries of neuter and masculine nouns. Jhānā and rūpā are being pluralized according to the masculine grammatical gender in their alternative forms. I have no direct evidence for this, we'd need to see adjectives in the masculine corresponding to jhānā and rūpā etc., and even then a lack of those would only mean that the language regularized over time as written text. My model in this claim for a possible reason why there are two plurals is classical Arabic, which I studied for two years. Classical Arabic, i.e. "Korannic," is created out of several diverse Arabic languages, and has all sorts of irregular and stacked ways to conjugate and decline, all of them holdovers from diverse dialects that merged, like in Old Church Slavonic, but OCS is far more systematic and regular than classical Arabic and based on less languages.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhānā

Post by Coëmgenu »

Aloka wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 6:50 amAnother point might be that your posts would be far more interesting if you controlled the need to make insulting remarks to DD all the time, because unfortunately it becomes predictable and boring. (no offence intended).
I don't think his objection warrants my attention and serious response. If you don't think so, we disagree, and that is fine. Rather than insulting, my opinions are plainly stated as to what I truly believe of DooDoot's response and explain why I feel no need to take his objection here seriously.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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DooDoot
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Re: Jhānā

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:19 pm I don't think...
:roll:
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:19 pm I feel no need to take his objection here seriously.
Sure, constantly reporting to the moderators is not "no need to take his objection here seriously". Sure :roll:

In summary, regarding "jhana" as "trance" is so archaic & 1800s. Best to stick to grammar, as i suggested.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 4:16 am I could make a list of not absurd Theravādin Venerables who favoured the translation "trance" for jhāna,
Unlikely the list would be very long, which is why u don't do it. Only the most archaic monk, like the old German scholar monks, would use "trance".
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 7:11 pmMy guess is the second nonstandard plural is an archaic Prakritism encountered in verse mostly.
Sounds illogical since the SN would be regarded as older than the AN, where SN 2.11 appears to have a direct parallel but AN 10.72 appears not.
.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: Jhānā

Post by Coëmgenu »

DooDoot wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:56 pmconstantly reporting to the moderators
This is your imagination.
DooDoot wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:56 pmsince the SN would be regarded as older than the AN, where SN 2.11 appears to have a direct parallel but AN 10.72 appears not.
I already pointed out that jhānā appears in non-verse contexts. Bringing up AN has no bearing on "jhānā" being archaic or not.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
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