The meaning of "vedaniyaṁ" ????

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
Post Reply
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11162
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

The meaning of "vedaniyaṁ" ????

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

What is the meaning or etymology of "vedaniyaṁ"?

It appears this term is only found thrice in the suttas, namely, SN 12.37, SN 35.145 and AN 3.34.

The quite useful Wisdom Library says:
In Jainism wrote:Vedanīya (वेदनीय, “experience-giving”) or Vedanīyakarma refers to one of the eight types of karma, according to the 2nd-century Tattvārthasūtra 2.1.—What is the meaning of experience-giving karma (vedanīya)? The karmas which make the soul experience miserys and pleasures.

Vedanīya (वेदनीय) refers to “feeling producing (karmas)” and represents one of the eight types of Prakṛti-bandha (species bondage): one of the four kinds of bondage (bandha) according to the 2nd-century Tattvārthasūtra chapter 8.—Accordingly, “what is meant by feeling producing karmas (vedanīya)? The karmas, rise of which, produce a feeling of misery or pleasure is called feeling producing karma”.

There are two types of feeling-producing karmas (vedanīya):

pleasant feeling (sātā-vedanīya),
unpleasant feeling (asātā-vedanīya)
Sanskrit wrote: Vedanīya (वेदनीय).—mfn.

(-yaḥ-yā-yaṃ) To be known or perceived. 2. To be, or to be made known. E. vid to know, anīyar aff.

1) Vedanīya (वेदनीय):—[from veda] mfn. to be denoted or expressed or meant by (ifc.; -tā f.), [Sarvadarśana-saṃgraha]

2) [v.s. ...] to be (or being) felt by or as (ifc.; -tā f. -tva n.), [ib.]

3) [v.s. ...] to be known or to be made known, [Horace H. Wilson]

Vedanīya (वेदनीय):—[(yaḥ-yā-yaṃ) a.] That should be known.
While most Pali translators translate "vedaniyaṁ" as "capable of being felt/something to be felt/capable of experiencing", for SN 12.37, SN 35.145 and AN 3.34, I prefer the Jain definition of "feeling producing".

What do we think about this? Thank you :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11162
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The meaning of "vedaniyaṁ" ????

Post by DooDoot »

Also, in SN 12.37 & SN 35.145, the associated terms abhisaṅkhataṁ & abhisañcetayitaṁ appear to be accusative past participles. What about vedaniyaṁ? Vedaniyaṁ appears to be accusative but not necessarily a past participle. Is this so?

Thank you :thanks:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 8318
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: The meaning of "vedaniyaṁ" ????

Post by Sam Vara »

I think it is a future passive participle. A form of verb which refers to the future, but is optative or imperative, in the sense that it says that something is to be, can be, ought to be, or is fit to be done. I think the datthabam which follows it in 12.37 is also in the future passive. You find it whenever the Buddha says (as in the Anattalakkhana Sutta) how something is to be seen.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11162
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The meaning of "vedaniyaṁ" ????

Post by DooDoot »

Thank you Samvara. Possibly we have discussed this matter before.

Why does the datthabam only apply to only the vedaniyam rather than to the whole sentence?

I have read translations where the “should be” applies to the entire sentence.

Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 8318
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: The meaning of "vedaniyaṁ" ????

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:02 am Thank you Samvara. Possibly we have discussed this matter before.

Why does the datthabam only apply to only the vedaniyam rather than to the whole sentence?

I have read translations where the “should be” applies to the entire sentence.

Thanks
I think it does apply to the whole sentence; the body is to be seen as abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ , as well as something to be felt. That's what makes most sense in this case.
User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 11162
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: The meaning of "vedaniyaṁ" ????

Post by DooDoot »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri May 07, 2021 8:08 am I think it does apply to the whole sentence; the body is to be seen as abhisaṅkhataṁ abhisañcetayitaṁ , as well as something to be felt. That's what makes most sense in this case.
Thank you SV. :bow:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Post Reply