Piti and pamojja

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
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Assaji
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by Assaji »

frank k wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:17 pm A better example is 'upekkha'.
Do you really think 4th jhana's upekkha is different qualitatively than 3rd jhana's upekkha, and the upekkha sambojjhanga ?
I think it's pretty much the same.
Similarly, I don't think modati, mudita, mojja, pa-mojja, pa-muditassa are describing qualitively different activities.
Yes, they are derived from the same root. However, "muditā" is derived from a quite different root.
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by frank k »

Assaji wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 10:04 am ... just quoting to tag you with alert....
Ab Vb jhana gloss for piti says:
Tattha katamā pīti? Yā pīti pāmojjaṃ āmodanā pamodanā hāso pahāso vitti odagyaṃ attamanatā cittassa—ayaṃ vuccati “pīti”.
Therein what is rapture? That which is rapture, gladness, rejoicing, rapture, mirth, merriment, felicity, elation, delight of consciousness. This is called rapture.
Shows a close association between piti and pamojja, in fact they're treating it as synonymous in 2 jhanas context.
And in the 7sb awakening factor sequence, sometimes pamojja shows up as a bonus factor that precedes piti.


And here is Vimutti magga's description for muditaa. It's very short, and supports my interpretation for muditaa being a more general purpose appreciation of virtue and kusala Dharma, rather than an altruistic concern for others.
I accept that the dictionary says muditaa and mudita are derived from different roots, but can we show some suttas that show their difference?
When I have time I'll do a DPR search for muditaa and see what I can find. What exact search patterns should I use to turn up muditaa and not mudita?
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4bv☮️ → 3.😊: THE IMMEASURABLE THOUGHT OF APPRECIATIVE JOY
.
.
4bv☮️ → 3.😊
Q. What is appreciative joy?
What is the practising of it?
What are its salient characteristic, function and manifestation?
What are its benefits?
What is the procedure?
A. As parents, who, on seeing the happiness of their dear and only child are glad, and say, "sadhu!" so, one develops appreciative joy for all beings. Thus should appreciative joy be known.
The undisturbed dwelling of the mind in appreciative joy — this is called the practising of it.
Gladness is its salient characteristic.
Non-fear is its function.
Destruction of dislike is its manifestation.
Its benefits are equal to those of friendly-kindness.
What is the procedure ?
The new yogin enters a place of solitude and sits down with mind collected and undisturbed. When one sees or hears that some person's qualities are esteemed by others, and that he is at peace and is joyful, one thinks thus: "sadhu! sadhu! may he continue joyful for a long time!".
And again, when one sees or hears that a certain person does not follow demeri- torious doctrines, or that he does not follow undesirable doctrines and that he follows desirable doctrines, one thinks thus: "sadhu! sadhu! may he continue joyful for a long time!".
That yogin by these means and through these activities develops the thought of appreciative joy and repeats it. Having by these means and through these activities developed the thought of appreciative joy and repeated it, he makes his mind pliant, and capable of bearing the object.
Thereafter he gradually develops appreciative joy for an indifferent person and an enemy. The rest is as was fully taught above. Thus with appreciative joy he fills the four directions.
Q. What is the fulfilment of appreciative joy?
What is its non-fulfilment?
A. When one fulfils appreciative joy, he removes unhappiness, does not arouse impure affection and does not speak untruth. Through two causes appreciative joy is not fulfilled: through resentment produced within himself and derisive action. The rest is as was fully taught above.
Appreciative joy has ended.
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Assaji
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Re: Piti and pamojja

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frank k wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:06 pm When I have time I'll do a DPR search for muditaa and see what I can find. What exact search patterns should I use to turn up muditaa and not mudita?
Endings won't suffice, so I would propose "mettāṃ*+muditāṃ*", "muditāsahagat*", muditācetovimutti.
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by frank k »

I looked through the first 4 nikayas searching for 'mudit'.
I can not find anything supporting muditaa as a brahmavihara being "sympathy for others' welfare" with a different meaning than mudita (modati and pamojja).
Most places where muditaa as a bv is cited, is just stating the standard 4bv formula, or mentioning a list of the 4. The only places I could find some meaning is a couple of passages like MN 62,
purpose of 4 brahma-viharas
“mettaṃ, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvehi.
"good-will, ******, meditation; meditate (with that).
mettañhi te, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvayato
(when you) {meditate with} {good-will} meditation,
yo byāpādo so pahīyissati.
one's ill-will ** will-be-abandoned.
karuṇaṃ, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvehi.
"compassion, ******, meditation; meditate (with that).
karuṇañhi te, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvayato
(when you) {meditate with} {compassion} meditation,
yā vihesā sā pahīyissati.
one's cruelty ** will-be-abandoned.
muditaṃ, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvehi.
"appreciation, ******, meditation; meditate (with that).
muditañhi te, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvayato
(when you) {meditate with} {appreciation} meditation,
yā arati sā pahīyissati.
one's resentment ** will-be-abandoned.

upekkhaṃ, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvehi.
"equanimity, ******, meditation; meditate (with that).
upekkhañhi te, rāhula, bhāvanaṃ bhāvayato
(when you) {meditate with} {equanimity} meditation,
yo paṭigho so pahīyissati.
one's irritation ** will-be-abandoned.
The opposite of the "resentment" arati, is relishing, delight, enjoyment:
I don't agree with 'resentment' as a translation for 'arati'. That comes from either B. Sujato or Thanissaro, and they were probably influenced by preconceived notions of what mudita as a bv is supposed to be. "arati" for example, is a nutriment for sloth and torpor, so I think "dissatisfaction" is a more general meaning and what fits better here.
The opposite of arati is rati:

Rati (f.) [Classic Sk. rati, fr. ram] love, attachment, pleasure, liking for (loc.), fondness of S i.133 (˚ṃ paccanubhavati), 207; iii.256;

Not "sympathy for others welfare".
The PED dictionary entry where muditaa has the different root than modati, looks like it's citing commentaries for its definition. And even so, a couple of the things in that entry seem to be referring to modati based meanings and not mudu (pliable).


Assaji wrote: Fri May 21, 2021 8:58 am
frank k wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 5:06 pm When I have time I'll do a DPR search for muditaa and see what I can find. What exact search patterns should I use to turn up muditaa and not mudita?
Endings won't suffice, so I would propose "mettāṃ*+muditāṃ*", "muditāsahagat*", muditācetovimutti.
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by frank k »

By the way, I have Pe added to lucid24.org homepage with quicklink.
type "pe 607", and that will take you directly to the passage I quote below.
All English paragraph numbers have html tags.
Assaji wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 11:10 am
asahi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:54 am what about mudita , is it synonymous with pamojja ? I am a bit confused here since mudita also meant joy .
Mudita is different, it is altruistic joy on experiencing the happiness of others.
Laddha-sampattito mā vigacchantu. Laddha-yasato mā vigacchantu. Laddha-pasaṃsato mā vigacchantu. Laddha-sukhato mā vigacchantu.

May they not lose the prosperity they have gained. May they not lose the repute they have gained. May they not lose the praise they have gained. May they not lose the happiness they have gained.

Continuing our conversation, where you say mudita is different in the 7 awakening factors context than four brahma vihara. Here's a passage from Pe:
Tattha katamā bhāvanā?
607. (vii) Herein, what is the keeping in being?
Mettāsevanā abyāpādavitakkabhāvanā.
Cultivation of lovingkindness is the keeping of non-ill-will thinking in being.
Karuṇāsevanā avihiṃsāvitakkabhāvanā.
Cultivation of compassion 1 is the keeping of non-cruelty thinking in being.
Muditābhāvanā pītisukhasampajaññā kāritā.
Keeping gladness in being is the state of one who acts with happiness, pleasure, and awareness.
Upekkhābhāvanā passavatā upekkhābhāvanā apassavatā upekkhā ca ajjhupekkhā ca, asubhasaññābhāvanā dukkhāpaṭipadā dandhābhiññā bhavasandhābhiññā bhavasandhānaṃ, sā chabbidhā bhāvanā bhāvitā bahulīkatā anuṭṭhitā vatthukatā yānīkatā paricitā susamāraddhā.
[There is(? )] keeping onlooking- equanimity in being as productivity(? ) 2 [and there is(? )] keeping onlooking-equanimity in being as unproductivity (? ), 2 [which are respectively(? )] onlooking-equanimity and looking on at. [There is(? )] keeping perception of ugliness 3 in being [which is(? )] the painful way with sluggish acquaintance, [such(? )] acquaintance being that tied to existence(? ) [belonging] to those tied to existence (1). 4 That keeping in being in the six ways 5 is kept in being, made much of, established, made the basis, made the vehicle, 6 consolidated, 6 and thoroughly well instigated. 6
To me, that shows mudita being tied to piti-sukha, then the piti-pamojjha link and mudita (mudu root) and pamojjha having a different root doesn't matter.

It's showing as rejoicing of virtuous activity, usually one's own (in 7 awakening factor sequence), and not specifically directed to others (as many people interpret muditā as a brahmavihāra).
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 3:53 pm To me, that shows mudita being tied to piti-sukha, then the piti-pamojjha link and mudita (mudu root) and pamojjha having a different root doesn't matter.

It's showing as rejoicing of virtuous activity, usually one's own (in 7 awakening factor sequence), and not specifically directed to others (as many people interpret muditā as a brahmavihāra).
Hi , it seems mudita , pamojja , piti are the same which means the joy at the beholding of virtuous attainment .

:thanks:
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Re: Piti and pamojja

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asahi wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:05 pm Peace is more precious than triumph
I don't know about that. That's how Buddhism and any religion becomes seriously corrupted over time. They start accepting alternate wrong view interpretations as legitimate, in order to keep the peace.

With EBT at least, I'm much more in favor of the triumph of right view over wrong views than having the peace of tolerating wrong views on jhāna promulgated by charlatans.
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:31 am
asahi wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:05 pm Peace is more precious than triumph
I don't know about that. That's how Buddhism and any religion becomes seriously corrupted over time. They start accepting alternate wrong view interpretations as legitimate, in order to keep the peace.

With EBT at least, I'm much more in favor of the triumph of right view over wrong views than having the peace of tolerating wrong views on jhāna promulgated by charlatans.
Just incase you have been misinformed . In my understanding Peace is equivalent to nibbana . It does not mean tolerating wrong view .
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Re: Piti and pamojja

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Ok, I thought you mean 'peace' in terms of 'harmony', such as groups of people with different interpretations of the texts (in contrast to 'triumph' of one interpretation winning over another).
Even in pāḷi, 'santi' , 'peace', is not unambiguously referring to nirvana, it can mean a number of things.
asahi wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 4:19 pm
frank k wrote: Tue May 31, 2022 11:31 am
asahi wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 4:05 pm Peace is more precious than triumph
I don't know about that. That's how Buddhism and any religion becomes seriously corrupted over time. They start accepting alternate wrong view interpretations as legitimate, in order to keep the peace.

With EBT at least, I'm much more in favor of the triumph of right view over wrong views than having the peace of tolerating wrong views on jhāna promulgated by charlatans.
Just incase you have been misinformed . In my understanding Peace is equivalent to nibbana . It does not mean tolerating wrong view .
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Re: Piti and pamojja

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I wonder about that. (your assertion that pamojja is less intense than pīti).
What happens when people become skilled in all 4 jhānas, and their natural inclination is upekkha, really not prone to any strong emotion?
Is it not possible for them to have pīti sambojjhanga and do first and second jhānas anymore because we all assume pīti is intense?
I propose that pīti tends to be intense for those first learning lower jhānas, but when one is skilled in all 4 jhānas, pīti, pamojja, and mudita can all be a very subtle mental joy.

Similar to how someone who was in extreme poverty became extremely rich. There was initially intense emotional excitement, but once they became accustomed to their new normal of being rich, mental joy is just very subtle as they take it for granted as being 'normal' now.
Assaji wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:47 am Hi Asahi,
asahi wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 7:55 am Pls explain the differences of both . Sometimes both translations appears the same ie as joy .
I don't have full glosses at hand, but I can say that in a nutshell - pamojja is less intense.
Yasmiṃ, mahānāma, samaye ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati, nevassa tasmiṃ samaye rāgapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na dosapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na mohapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti; ujugatamevassa tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti tathāgataṃ ārabbha.

Mahanama, at any time when a disciple of the noble ones is keeping in mind the Tathāgata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with hate, not overcome with delusion. His mind is straightened, based on the Tathāgata.

Ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ.

And when the mind is straightened, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the dhamma, gains joy connected with the dhamma.

Pamuditassa pīti jāyati,

When he is joyful, rapture arises.
:anjali:
Last edited by frank k on Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Piti and pamojja

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https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -this.html

AN 5.162 gives a very good description of the role of mudita as a brahma vihara. (even though 'mudita' never appears in that sutta! But reading this in conjunction with AN 5.161 makes it clear we're talking about mudita as a brahma vihara).

Again, agreeing with KN Pe, Vimt., several EBT suttas, it's showing mudita as rejoicing in virtuous conduct of body, speech, mind. Whether it's in oneself, or others.

There's enough agreement among EBT and non-EBT like Pe, vimt., for me to conclude that mudita as a brahmavihara, is practically synonymous with the mudita + pamojja + pīti of the 7sb awakening factor sequence.

Just as upekkha in 4th jhana, 7sb awakening, and brahmaviharas are all the same.

Vism. goes off on a weird mudita narrative about non-jealousy.
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by Johann »

frank k wrote: Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:24 pm https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -this.html

AN 5.162 gives a very good description of the role of mudita as a brahma vihara. (even though 'mudita' never appears in that sutta! But reading this in conjunction with AN 5.161 makes it clear we're talking about mudita as a brahma vihara).

Again, agreeing with KN Pe, Vimt., several EBT suttas, it's showing mudita as rejoicing in virtuous conduct of body, speech, mind. Whether it's in oneself, or others.

There's enough agreement among EBT and non-EBT like Pe, vimt., for me to conclude that mudita as a brahmavihara, is practically synonymous with the mudita + pamojja + pīti of the 7sb awakening factor sequence.

Just as upekkha in 4th jhana, 7sb awakening, and brahmaviharas are all the same.

Vism. goes off on a weird mudita narrative about non-jealousy.
Good to incl. the 6 anussatis (Ariya-Uposatha) here, good householder, as they function right in this frame. Joy with good and blameless self-identification.
Tassa tathāgataṃ anussarato cittaṃ pasīdati. Pāmujjaṃ uppajjati. Ye cittassa upakkilesā te pahīyanti. Ayaṃ vuccati visākhe ariyasāvako brahmuposathaṃ upavasati.
The pattern of rejoicing by reflecting given in MN61 on one's conducts fit and act likewise toward the Bojjhaṅgās.
Teneva tvaṃ rāhula pītipāmujjena vihareyyāsi aho rattānusikkhī kusalesu dhammesu.
(Btw.: Nothing wrong with non-jealousy, as a rightly glade mind is void of such, just the neurotical no-self dominance in certain comms. And again, pīti isn't proper transl. in the west. Better satisfied, saturated: letting go/surrender (hot iron, cause of dukkha) => joy => satisfaction => calm => heal => collection....
...Just as when there is a pool of clear water — sweet, cool, & limpid, with gently sloping banks, & shaded on all sides by trees of many kinds — and a person comes along, burning with heat, covered with sweat, exhausted, trembling, & thirsty. Having plunged into the pool, having bathed & drunk & come back out, he would sit down or lie down right there in the shade of the trees. In the same way, when an individual is pure in his bodily behavior & verbal behavior, and periodically experiences mental clarity & calm, one should at that time pay attention to the purity of his bodily behavior...the purity of his verbal behavior, and to the fact that he periodically experiences mental clarity & calm. Thus the hatred for him should be subdued. An entirely inspiring individual can make the mind grow serene....
)
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Re: Piti and pamojja

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When you live with the eye faculty unrestrained, your citta becomes polluted when it comes to sights known by the eye.
Cakkhundriyaṁ asaṁvutassa, bhikkhave, viharato cittaṁ byāsiñcati cakkhuviññeyyesu rūpesu.

When the citta is polluted, there’s no joy.
tassa byāsittacittassa pāmojjaṁ na hoti.

When there’s no joy, there’s no rapture.
Pāmojje asati pīti na hoti.
SN 35.97
As far as the Indian literature across Buddha's time is concerned, pāmojja/pāmujja (pramud - RV. VS. ŚBr. MBh.), is mostly a sensual pleasure.
In the sutta above and its parallel, there is no "proper" sensual pleasure, because of lack of discipline/restraint.

Pāmujja seems to be the sensual pleasure derived from disciplining the faculties (sense restraint).

It always come after pasāda (prasāda (agt. prasad) = purity Up. — absence of excitement KaṭhUp. Suśr.).
In AitBr., prasad has the meaning of: "to fall into the power of" - that power is the power of discipline/restraint.

-------

On the other end, pīti (prīti - act. prī) is about being contented with oneself - as in a propitiative pleasure (RV. ĀśvGṛ. MBh.) that reconciles one with himself and appeases him.

When one feels the sensual pleasure of restraining the faculties (pāmujja), one feels the pleasure of being reconciled with himself, and the pleasure of being at peace with oneself (pīti).

------

Pāmojje asati, pīti na hoti.
SN 55.40
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In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by Johann »

Sadhu/mudita

(not sensual but because abounding it's hold, a mind-made one, having indentification beyond sensuality, in mind qualities)
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Re: Piti and pamojja

Post by ToVincent »

Johann wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:42 am (not sensual but because abounding it's hold, a mind-made one, having indentification beyond sensuality, in mind qualities)
Which "mind-made"?
Mano-made or citta-made?

--------

Byāsitta [vi+ā+sica+ta]
√ sic = to pour out (viz. expresses without restraint).
Note that Sujato's translation of byāsitta as "polluted" in SN 35.97 above, is not accurate, as usual — nor are by the way, his translations of pāmojja and pīti, as "joy" and "rapture". .

When eye (a sense,) meets with a sight, this is a sensual (sensorial) pleasure - not a citta's pleasure.
Citta is just experiencing that vedanā/experience, without restraint - when in a byāsitta mode. There is no pleasure involved in the citta at that level — and if there is some kind of pleasure, there is no sense involved into that for sure. Citta is not a field of sensory experience (neither ajjhattika, nor bāhirāni āyatanāni).

On the other hand, the pleasure of pāmojja is sensual (sensorial/physical), as it involves the eye (a sense / an internal field of sensory experience / ajjhattika āyatana) in the saḷāyatana nidāna.
And this goes pretty well with the definition of the Indian literature of the time (narrative).
.
.
In this world, there are many people acting and yearning for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; and very few for the Unborn.
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