Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Hi Pali teachers ,

Pls explain the differences of both . Sometimes both translations appears the same ie as joy .

Hi Asahi,

asahi wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 7:55 am Pls explain the differences of both . Sometimes both translations appears the same ie as joy .

I don't have full glosses at hand, but I can say that in a nutshell - pamojja is less intense.

Yasmiṃ, mahānāma, samaye ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati, nevassa tasmiṃ samaye rāgapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na dosapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na mohapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti; ujugatamevassa tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti tathāgataṃ ārabbha.

Mahanama, at any time when a disciple of the noble ones is keeping in mind the Tathāgata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with hate, not overcome with delusion. His mind is straightened, based on the Tathāgata.

Ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ.

And when the mind is straightened, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the dhamma, gains joy connected with the dhamma.

Pamuditassa pīti jāyati,

When he is joyful, rapture arises.

Assaji wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 9:47 am Hi Asahi,


I don't have full glosses at hand, but I can say that in a nutshell - pamojja is less intense.

Yasmiṃ, mahānāma, samaye ariyasāvako tathāgataṃ anussarati, nevassa tasmiṃ samaye rāgapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na dosapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti, na mohapariyuṭṭhitaṃ cittaṃ hoti; ujugatamevassa tasmiṃ samaye cittaṃ hoti tathāgataṃ ārabbha.

Mahanama, at any time when a disciple of the noble ones is keeping in mind the Tathāgata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with hate, not overcome with delusion. His mind is straightened, based on the Tathāgata.

Ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ.

And when the mind is straightened, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the dhamma, gains joy connected with the dhamma.

Pamuditassa pīti jāyati,

When he is joyful, rapture arises.

Hi Assaji , what about mudita , is it synonymous with pamojja ? I am a bit confused here since mudita also meant joy .

asahi wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:54 am what about mudita , is it synonymous with pamojja ? I am a bit confused here since mudita also meant joy .

Mudita is different, it is altruistic joy on experiencing the happiness of others.

Laddha-sampattito mā vigacchantu. Laddha-yasato mā vigacchantu. Laddha-pasaṃsato mā vigacchantu. Laddha-sukhato mā vigacchantu.

May they not lose the prosperity they have gained. May they not lose the repute they have gained. May they not lose the praise they have gained. May they not lose the happiness they have gained.

Assaji wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 9:47 am pamojja is less intense.

Is pamojja the same as pamoda? Thanks

Assaji wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 11:10 am

asahi wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 10:54 am what about mudita , is it synonymous with pamojja ? I am a bit confused here since mudita also meant joy .

Mudita is different, it is altruistic joy on experiencing the happiness of others.

Laddha-sampattito mā vigacchantu. Laddha-yasato mā vigacchantu. Laddha-pasaṃsato mā vigacchantu. Laddha-sukhato mā vigacchantu.

May they not lose the prosperity they have gained. May they not lose the repute they have gained. May they not lose the praise they have gained. May they not lose the happiness they have gained.

Ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ.

And when the mind is straightened, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the dhamma, gains joy connected with the dhamma.


Pamuditassa pīti jāyati,

When he is joyful, rapture arises .

Does pamuditassa here means mudita (joy) of altruistic ? It seems mudita here synonymous with pamojja . Or am i wrong ?

asahi wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 12:04 pm

Ujugatacitto kho pana, mahānāma, ariyasāvako labhati atthavedaṃ, labhati dhammavedaṃ, labhati dhammūpasaṃhitaṃ pāmojjaṃ.

And when the mind is straightened, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the dhamma, gains joy connected with the dhamma.


Pamuditassa pīti jāyati,

When he is joyful, rapture arises .

Does pamuditassa here means mudita (joy) of altruistic ? It seems mudita here synonymous with pamojja . Or am i wrong ?

Pamudita here is an adjective "joyful", "glad", denoting one who experiences pāmojja (joy).

Note the difference in ending: altruistic joy (muditā) has a long final 'ā'

Assaji wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 12:36 pm
Pamudita here is an adjective "joyful", "glad", denoting one who experiences pāmojja (joy).

Note the difference in ending: altruistic joy (muditā) has a long final 'ā'

Okay . Many thanks

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 11:23 am Is pamojja the same as pamoda? Thanks

AFAIK, they mean the same thing. However, "pamoda" belongs to a later temporal stratum of Pāli texts. The earliest texts use the form pāmojja.

On chronological markers, see: viewtopic.php?p=191788#p191788

Assaji wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 12:44 pm However, "pamoda" belongs to a later temporal stratum of Pāli texts.

Thank you Assaji. Pamoda is used in the Anapanasati teachings.

DooDoot wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 8:01 pm

Assaji wrote: ↑Sun May 09, 2021 12:44 pm However, "pamoda" belongs to a later temporal stratum of Pāli texts.

Thank you Assaji. Pamoda is used in the Anapanasati teachings.

You are welcome.

"Abhippamodayaṁ" in the Ānāpānassati Sutta is a different thing, it is a present participle of the verb "abhi-ppamodayati", "to please, make glad", which is a causative of "abhi-ppamodati", "to rejoice in".

Here are many relevant passages on piti, pamojja, mudita
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

I really don't get why people see them as being very different.

mudita as it's used in 7 awakening factors, (as a precursor or concurrent factor with piti), I don't see as being intrinsincally different than mudita as a brahma vihara.

Especially if you compare vimutti-magga and visuddhi magga's mudita's section,
vimt's mudita seems very much to me the same as the mudita in 7sb awakening.

That is, one takes joy in virtuous activity that leads to nirvana, whether it's from oneself or in others.

Where can you find any EBT justifying 'altruistic joy' (rather than just joy of doing virtue of purifying the mind especially in 7sb sequence)?
Altruism means you're not thinking about yourself, only of others. That's more a mahayana thing.
In EBT, you work on purifying your own mind.

frank k wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 5:21 pm Here are many relevant passages on piti, pamojja, mudita
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

I really don't get why people see them as being very different.

mudita as it's used in 7 awakening factors, (as a precursor or concurrent factor with piti), I don't see as being intrinsincally different than mudita as a brahma vihara.

Especially if you compare vimutti-magga and visuddhi magga's mudita's section,
vimt's mudita seems very much to me the same as the mudita in 7sb awakening.

That is, one takes joy in virtuous activity that leads to nirvana, whether it's from oneself or in others.

Where can you find any EBT justifying 'altruistic joy' (rather than just joy of doing virtue of purifying the mind especially in 7sb sequence)?
Altruism means you're not thinking about yourself, only of others. That's more a mahayana thing.
In EBT, you work on purifying your own mind.

It seems the other ascetics that practice 4 brahma vihara do have altruistic mind not necessarily is a mahayana notion . When we send metta radiation outwardly to other sentient beings that is an act of selflessness doesnt it so ? Buddha just make use of the tools to develop a peaceful mind .

frank k wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 5:21 pm Here are many relevant passages on piti, pamojja, mudita
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

I really don't get why people see them as being very different.

There's a significant difference between "mudita", past participle of "modati", and the noun "muditā" (note the final long ā).
"Pāmojja" is directly related to the verb "modati", and not to the noun "muditā".

edit, addition: Ok, I just looked up muditaa and mudita and I see what you're saying on that difference.
muditaa comes from mudu, and mudita comes from modati, but also mudita is a past participle of 'mud'.
so is 'mud' a really different thing than 'mudu'? I don't know.

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I'm not talking about grammatical differences.
For example, b. bodhi translates vimokkha and vimutti both as 'liberation'.
And as far as how they're used, they don't seem to mean different kinds of 'liberation.'

A better example is 'upekkha'.
Do you really think 4th jhana's upekkha is different qualitatively than 3rd jhana's upekkha, and the upekkha sambojjhanga ?
Of course 4 jhana's is going to be stronger and more accurate, but I"m talking about the essential quality of what equanimous observation is doing with upekkha. Whether it's 3rd jhana observing rise and fall of the aggregates with upekkha, or 4th jhana doing it, or I'm in the upekkha brahma vihara watching rise and fall of aggregates of beings in 8 directions, is it really a different thing, a different meaning for upekkha?

Similarly, I don't think modati, mudita, mojja, pa-mojja, pa-muditassa are describing qualitively different activities.

Assaji wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 9:46 am

frank k wrote: ↑Tue May 18, 2021 5:21 pm Here are many relevant passages on piti, pamojja, mudita
https://lucid24.org/sted/7sb/4piti/book/index.html

I really don't get why people see them as being very different.

There's a significant difference between "mudita", past participle of "modati", and the noun "muditā" (note the final long ā).
"Pāmojja" is directly related to the verb "modati", and not to the noun "muditā".