Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

[waryoffolly]

I went through the canon (first four nikaya's only, if someone else wants to add the KN feel free!) and catalogued different usages of kayena by their type. I tried to include more than one example where a specific usage is common, but after four suttas I just wrote 'etc'. So these should be taken as examples of different usages rather than 'absolute' counts of a specific usage. Translations are from suttacentral by Ajahn Sujato with modification to be terser and closer to the pali on occasion. Occasionally I also looked at Bhikkhu Bodhi translations as well. My opinions and comments about a given usage are in brackets '[....]' after the pali quote. I'm aware that I could probably re-organize some of these into bigger groups/categories and may do so at a later date. Or if someone else would like to help, feel free!

Overall I found several new (to me) usages of the 'kayena phusitva' phrase where it's debatable that it refers to the physical body (and I would argue for an idiomatic usage meaning 'directly'/'viscerally' in these cases, others would argue that it must mean mental-body) - see usages 6, 28, 35, and 39. I actually did find a usage without phusitva that arguably doesn't mean physical body as well- see usage 13.

Apologies for the messy formatting, I may edit this post at a later date to clean it up even more.

____________________________________________________________________


1. Third jhana formula:
DN1, DN 2.22, DN 3.10, DN 9.3, etc
'yato kho, bho, ayaṃ attā pītiyā ca virāgā upekkhako ca viharati, sato ca sampajāno, sukhañca kāyena paṭisaṃvedeti, yaṃ taṃ ariyā ācikkhanti “upekkhako satimā sukhavihārī”ti, tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati'
[Meaning of kayena here is debated by many.]

2. Dwelling with restraint and actions via body/speech/mind:
DN 1, DN 27, MN 14
'samāno kāyena saṃvuto vihareyya, vācāya saṃvuto vihareyya, manasā saṃvuto vihareyya'

DN 27, MN 13, MN 14, MN 129, etc
'kāyena duccaritaṃ/sucaritaṃ caritvā vācāya duccaritaṃ/sucaritaṃ caritvā manasā duccaritaṃ'
[other similar usages to this as well)

MN 41, MN 42, AN 10.220
Not-dhamma misconduct with the body (3fold)/(4fold)speech/(3fold)mind
“tividhaṃ kho, gahapatayo, kāyena adhammacariyāvisamacariyā hoti, catubbidhaṃ vācāya adhammacariyāvisamacariyā hoti, tividhaṃ manasā adhammacariyāvisamacariyā hoti.'

MN 61
An action done by body/speech/mind should be done after reflection
'“evameva kho, rāhula, paccavekkhitvā paccavekkhitvā kāyena kammaṃ kattabbaṃ, paccavekkhitvā paccavekkhitvā vācāya kammaṃ kattabbaṃ, paccavekkhitvā paccavekkhitvā manasā kammaṃ kattabbaṃ'

MN 67, 35.127
Monk without body/speech unguarded and sense doors unrestrained
'arakkhiteneva kāyena arakkhitāya vācāya anupaṭṭhitāya satiyā asaṃvutehi indriyehi'

MN 150
conduct themselves poorly by body/spech/mind
'samavisamaṃ caranti kāyena vācāya manasā'

3. Salayatana usage (repeated for all sense bases):
DN 2, DN 10, DN 34, etc
'kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā'
[Clearly the body here. This same formulation is used when referencing touching the formless states/nibbana 'with the body', which some take to mean mental body, and others take be an idiom referring to the directness of experience.]

DN 23
'kāyenapi phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusati'

MN 105
Engaging in unsuitable touches with the body
'asappāyaṁ kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ anuyuñjeyya'

SN 35.116
Through the body in the world you perceive and conceive the world.
'Kāyena kho, āvuso lokasmiṁ lokasaññī hoti lokamānī.'

SN 35.232 (Verse)
Buddha has a body with which he touches touches with the body, but no desire/greed since his mind is well-freed.
'Saṁvijjati kho, āvuso, bhagavato kāyo.Phusati bhagavā kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ. Chandarāgo bhagavato natthi. Suvimuttacitto bhagavā.'

AN 5.140, AN 11.17 (and elsewhere)
Sense restraint formula (as explanation of how a monk protects)
'idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu cakkhunā rūpaṃ disvā na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī. yatvādhikaraṇamenaṃ cakkhundriyaṃ asaṃvutaṃ viharantaṃ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṃ, tassa saṃvarāya paṭipajjati; rakkhati cakkhundriyaṃ; cakkhundriye saṃvaraṃ āpajjati. sotena saddaṃ sutvā. ghānena gandhaṃ ghāyitvā. jivhāya rasaṃ sāyitvā. kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā. manasā dhammaṃ viññāya na nimittaggāhī hoti nānubyañjanaggāhī. yatvādhikaraṇamenaṃ manindriyaṃ asaṃvutaṃ viharantaṃ abhijjhādomanassā pāpakā akusalā dhammā anvāssaveyyuṃ, tassa saṃvarāya paṭipajjati; rakkhati manindriyaṃ; manindriye saṃvaraṃ āpajjati. evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu rakkhitā hoti.'

AN 6.1
Not being gladdened/saddened by any of the six senses. Touching a touch with the body, not gladdened or saddened, but dwelling with upekkhaka, sati, and sampajanna.
'kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṃ phusitvā neva sumano hoti na dummano, upekkhako viharati sato sampajāno
[Note the very close similarity to the third jhana formula.. Isn't that suspicious?]

4. Abhinna Formula
DN 2, DN 10, DN 11, DN 28 etc
'yāva brahmalokāpi kāyena vasaṃ vatteti.'
[Could be a mind made body or the physical body. If it's the mind-made body then based on the stock formula it's 'complete in all it's faculties' (Bhikkhu Bodhi Translation), which could mean capable of touch and the other sense bases. It's less likely to be a physical body in my view based on my reading of SN 51.22 where Ananda is amazed that the buddha visits the devaloka with his normal physical body which suggests to me that the usual way this abhinna is used is with a mind-made body]

SN 51.22
Buddha goes to Brahmaloka with mind-made and physical body.
“abhijānāti nu kho, bhante, bhagavā iddhiyā manomayena kāyena brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti? “abhijānāmi khvāhaṃ, ānanda, iddhiyā manomayena kāyena brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti. “abhijānāti pana, bhante, bhagavā iminā cātumahābhūtikena kāyena iddhiyā brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti? “abhijānāmi khvāhaṃ, ānanda, iminā cātumahābhūtikena {cātummahābhūtikena (sī. syā. kaṃ.)} kāyena iddhiyā brahmalokaṃ upasaṅkamitā”ti."

5. The woman treasure not betraying a king with body or mind
DN 17, MN 129
'Taṁ kho panānanda, itthiratanaṁ rājānaṁ mahāsudassanaṁ manasāpi no aticari, kuto pana kāyena'

AN 4.55 similar but with husband and wife not betraying each each other with mind, much less with body
'“Yato me, bhante, nakulamātā gahapatānī daharasseva daharā ānītā, nābhijānāmi nakulamātaraṁ gahapatāniṁ manasāpi aticaritā, kuto pana kāyena. '

6. Eight liberations to be realized with the body or touching with the body
DN 33
'aṭṭha vimokkhā kāyena sacchikaraṇīyā'
[Another case with debatable meaning. Potentially could have idiomatic meaning here of 'directly', others will suggest it means 'mental body'. In my view it is unlikely to mean 'mental body' because 'mental-body' is used in other places in the canon as a compound nama-kaya. Others have suggested that it means straightforwadly the physical body, and that all's that's mean here is that these states can be attained in this life.]

MN 6, AN 8.72
' bhikkhu — ‘ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā, te kāyena phusitvā vihareyyan’ti'

MN 70, SN 12.70
touching with the body formless attainments that go beyond form
'ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te kāyena phusitvā'

AN 4.87, 4.89, 4.90, AN 9.43, etc
not/does dwell touching the 8 liberations with the body
'no ca kho aṭṭha vimokkhe kāyena phusitvā viharati'


7. Thinking skillful thoughts is good, how much more by speech and mind
MN 8.1
'Cittuppādampi kho ahaṁ, cunda, kusalesu dhammesu bahukāraṁ vadāmi, ko pana vādo kāyena vācāya anuvidhīyanāsu.'

8. Without stirring with the body, or speaking experiencing happiness
MN 14
'“‘taṃ kiṃ maññathāvuso nigaṇṭhā, pahoti rājā māgadho seniyo bimbisāro, aniñjamāno kāyena, abhāsamāno vācaṃ, cha rattindivāni.'

9. Thinking all night, and applying yourself with the body/speech/mind
MN 23
'Yaṁ kho, bhikkhu, rattiṁ anuvitakketvā anuvicāretvā divā kammante payojeti kāyena vācāya ‘manasā'

10 Not withdrawn via body and mind away from kama
MN 36.1, MN 85, MN 100
'kāyena ceva cittena ca kāmehi avūpakaṭṭhā viharanti'

11. They behave one way by body, another by speech, another by mind.
MN 51
'dāsāti vā pessāti vā kammakarāti vā aññathāva kāyena samudācaranti aññathāva vācāya aññathāva nesaṁ cittaṁ hoti'


12. Elephant using it's body in battle, but protecting its trunk
MN 61
'Seyyathāpi, rāhula, rañño nāgo īsādanto urūḷhavā abhijāto saṅgāmāvacaro saṅgāmagato purimehipi pādehi kammaṁ karoti, pacchimehipi pādehi kammaṁ karoti, purimenapi kāyena kammaṁ karoti, pacchimenapi kāyena kammaṁ karoti, sīsenapi kammaṁ karoti, kaṇṇehipi kammaṁ karoti, dantehipi kammaṁ karoti, naṅguṭṭhenapi kammaṁ karoti; rakkhateva soṇḍaṁ. '


13. Realises with the body the supreme truth, and sees it with penatrating wisdom
MN 70, MN 78, MN 95, AN 113
'pahitatto samāno kāyena ceva paramasaccaṁ sacchikaroti, paññāya ca naṁ ativijjha passati'

14. Not doing bad action with body, bad speech with the voice, not intending bad intention, not living bad livilihood.
'na kāyena pāpakammaṃ karoti, na pāpakaṃ vācaṃ bhāsati, na pāpakaṃ saṅkappaṃ saṅkappeti, na pāpakaṃ ājīvaṃ ājīvati'

15. Without having an idea of 'body', how could a baby do a bad action with the body apart from wriggling.
MN 64.1, MN 78.1
'Daharassa hi, thapati, kumārassa mandassa uttānaseyyakassa kāyotipi na hoti, kuto pana kāyena pāpakammaṁ karissati, aññatra phanditamattā.'

16. I had better do good by body speech and mind [to avoid bad rebirth]
AN 3.36,
'ahampi khomhi jātidhammo, jātiṁ anatīto. Handāhaṁ kalyāṇaṁ karomi kāyena vācāya manasā’ti'

17. After doing a intentional deed by body/speech/mind what does one feel?
MN 136
'Sañcetanikaṁ, āvuso samiddhi, kammaṁ katvā kāyena vācāya manasā kiṁ so vediyatī”ti? '

18. Various poetry in Sagatha Vagga where it means 'action by body/speech/mind'
SN 1.20, SN 1.40, SN 3.20, SN 3.25, SN 4.3, etc

19. Taught dhamma with upper/lower half of body invisible
SN 6.14
'dissamānenapi kāyena dhammaṁ desesi, adissamānenapi kāyena dhammaṁ desesi, dissamānenapi heṭṭhimena upaḍḍhakāyena adissamānena uparimena upaḍḍhakāyena dhammaṁ desesi, dissamānenapi uparimena upaḍḍhakāyena adissamānena heṭṭhimena upaḍḍhakāyena dhammaṁ desesi'

20. Knowing their was water but not touching it with the body
SN 12.68
'Tassa ‘udakan’ti hi kho ñāṇaṁ assa, na ca kāyena phusitvā vihareyya'
[Note this a metaphor referring to being at least a stream entrant but not an arahant. The metaphor is seeing water in a well and not touching it. This metaphorical usage strengthens the idea that kayena phusitva could be idiomatic in other contexts in my understanding.]

21. A worlding on a quest for sense pleasures behaves poorly with body/speech/mind.
SN 14.12
'Kāmapariyesanaṁ, bhikkhave, pariyesamāno assutavā puthujjano tīhi ṭhānehi micchā paṭipajjati—kāyena, vācāya, manasā. '

22. Doing both (wholesome/unwholesome) types of deeds by body/speech/mind
SN 29.3
In the past we did both types of deeds by body/speech/mind
'mayaṁ kho pubbe kāyena dvayakārino ahumha, vācāya dvayakārino, manasā dvayakārino. '

SN 29.7, 29.11-20, SN 20, etc
Some do both types of deeds by body/speech/mind
'“idha, bhikkhu, ekacco kāyena dvayakārī hoti, vācāya dvayakārī hoti, manasā dvayakārī hoti'

23. They are followers who being repelled by the body/life search for a murderer
SN 35.88
'santi kho tassa bhagavato sāvakā kāyena ca jīvitena ca aṭṭīyamānā harāyamānā jigucchamānā satthahārakaṁ pariyesanti, taṁ me idaṁ apariyiṭṭhaññeva satthahārakaṁ laddhan’ti.'

SN 54.9
Horrified etc by the body they looked for someone to slit their wrists.
'Te iminā kāyena aṭṭīyamānā harāyamānā jigucchamānā satthahārakaṁ pariyesanti.'

24. Make kamma by body/speech/mind:
SN 35.146
' kammaṃ karoti kāyena vācāya manasā'

25. Senior monks going along as if their bodies were melting from the food they had eaten.
SN 41.4
' te ca therā bhikkhū paveliyamānena maññe kāyena gacchanti, yathā taṃ bhojanaṃ bhuttāvino.'

26. Naga getting a great and abundant body after making it to the ocean.
SN 45.151, SN 46.1
'te tattha kāyaṁ vaḍḍhetvā balaṁ gāhetvā kusobbhe otaranti, kusobbhe otaritvā mahāsobbhe otaranti, mahāsobbhe otaritvā kunnadiyo otaranti, kunnadiyo otaritvā mahānadiyo otaranti, mahānadiyo otaritvā mahāsamuddaṁ otaranti, te tattha mahantattaṁ vepullattaṁ āpajjanti kāyena;'

27. Satipatthana formula plus keen aware, unified, full awareness, clear mind, collected, not scattered with body/feeling/mind/ detached (?)
SN 47.4
'Yepi te, bhikkhave, bhikkhū arahanto khīṇāsavā vusitavanto katakaraṇīyā ohitabhārā anuppattasadatthā parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojanā sammadaññāvimuttā, tepi kāye kāyānupassino viharanti ātāpino sampajānā ekodibhūtā vippasannacittā samāhitā ekaggacittā, kāyena visaṁyuttā;'
[notice the connection to samadhi and insight-both are happening in satipatthana practice here!]

28. After repeatedly trying for samadhi and understanding with wisdom-touching with the body I dwell and see with wisdom.
SN 48.50, SN 48.53
'Saddho so, bhante, ariyasāvako evaṁ padahitvā padahitvā evaṁ saritvā saritvā evaṁ samādahitvā samādahitvā evaṁ pajānitvā pajānitvā evaṁ abhisaddahati: ‘ime kho te dhammā ye me pubbe sutavā ahesuṁ. Tenāhaṁ etarahi kāyena ca phusitvā viharāmi, paññāya ca ativijjha passāmī’ti. '
[Another interesting example of touching with the body meditative experiences and widom]

29. Committing unskillful offense with the body
AN 2.11-20
'ayaṁ kho bhikkhu akusalaṁ āpanno kañcideva desaṁ kāyena.'

30. Upright in body/speech/mind (verse)
AN 2.33-42
'Te ujjubhūtā kāyena, vācāya uda cetasā'


31. The people supporting ethical monks make merit by body/speech/mind
AN 3.46
“Yaṁ, bhikkhave, sīlavanto pabbajitā gāmaṁ vā nigamaṁ vā upanissāya viharanti. Tattha manussā tīhi ṭhānehi bahuṁ puññaṁ pasavanti. Katamehi tīhi? Kāyena, vācāya, manasā.'

32. Restraint practiced with body/speech/mind leads the dead to happiness
AN 3.52, 3.53 (verse)
'Yodha kāyena saṁyamo, Vācāya uda cetasā; Taṁ tassa petassa sukhāya hoti,'

33. Greedy person acts in body/speech/mind that too is unskillful
AN 3.70
'yadapi luddho abhisaṅkharoti kāyena vācāya manasā tadapi akusalaṁ;'

34. Three ways of saluting/worshipping by body/speech/mind
AN 3.155
'“tisso imā, bhikkhave, vandanā. katamā tisso? kāyena, vācāya, manasā — imā kho, bhikkhave, tisso vandanā”ti.'

35. There are things to be realized with the body
AN 4.189
'atthi, bhikkhave, dhammā kāyena sacchikaraṇīyā'

36. Act out of greed/hatred/delusion via body/speech/mind
AN 4.193
'lobhaṃ vineyya viharanto na lobhajaṃ kammaṃ karissasi kāyena vācāya manasā. dosaṃ vineyya viharāhi. dosaṃ vineyya viharanto na dosajaṃ kammaṃ karissasi kāyena vācāya manasā. mohaṃ vineyya viharāhi. mohaṃ vineyya viharanto na mohajaṃ kammaṃ karissasi kāyena vācāya manasā'

37. A monk,when a touch felt with the body (repeated for the five senses), and being attached to it, is unable to still the mind
AN 5.139
'Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu kāyena phoṭṭhabbaṁ phusitvā rajanīye phoṭṭhabbe sārajjati, na sakkoti cittaṁ samādahituṁ'

38. With the mind made body the Buddha came up to me using iddhi
AN 8.30
'manomayena kāyena, iddhiyā upasaṅkami. '

39. After jhana/formless attainments touching that sphere with the body
AN 9.45
'Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṁ tathā tathā naṁ kāyena phusitvā viharati, paññāya ca naṁ pajānāti. '

40. Things to be given up by body/speech/both/neither.
AN 10.23
'“atthi, bhikkhave, dhammā kāyena pahātabbā, no vācāya. atthi, bhikkhave, dhammā vācāya pahātabbā, no kāyena. atthi, bhikkhave, dhammā neva kāyena pahātabbā no vācāya, paññāya disvā {disvā disvā (sī. syā.)} pahātabbā.'

41. ???
AN 10.30
' ♦ mahāvaggo tatiyo.

♦ tassuddānaṃ —

♦ sīhādhivutti kāyena, cundena kasiṇena ca.

♦ kāḷī ca dve mahāpañhā, kosalehi pare duveti. '
[looks like a passage at the end of a section, but I'm not sure what it means]

42. Threefold impurity by body
AN 10.176
'Kathañca, cunda, tividhaṁ kāyena asoceyyaṁ hoti? '

43. Creepy by body/speech/mind
AN 10.216
'So saṁsappati kāyena, saṁsappati vācāya, saṁsappati manasā'

[salayatananirodha]

lol

[frank k]

nice work!
I'll add a link to this thread on my similar research page here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/k/kaya/index.html

lol

You care to expand on your comment? Somebody puts in a fair amount of time to do research and share it, the least you can do is express appreciation or offer a comment with some value and content.

[auto]

What is that form which is the sphere of hearing … smell … taste … body-sensibility?

The body, that is to say, the sentient organ which is derived from the four Great Phenomena … this that is “an empty village”—this is that form which is the sphere of … body-sensibility.

‘Empty village’ is a term for the six interior sense fields.
Suñño gāmoti kho, bhikkhave, channetaṁ ajjhattikānaṁ āyatanānaṁ adhivacanaṁ.

before awakening he didn't let pleasant nor painful feelings to occupy his mind

..
Because their physical endurance is developed, pleasant feelings don’t occupy the mind. And because their mind is developed, painful feelings don’t occupy the mind.
Tassa kho esā, aggivessana, uppannāpi sukhā vedanā cittaṁ na pariyādāya tiṭṭhati bhāvitattā kāyassa, uppannāpi dukkhā vedanā cittaṁ na pariyādāya tiṭṭhati bhāvitattā cittassa.
..
Ever since I shaved off my hair and beard, dressed in ocher robes, and went forth from the lay life to homelessness, it has not been possible for any pleasant or painful feeling to occupy my mind.”
Yato kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, kesamassuṁ ohāretvā kāsāyāni vatthāni acchādetvā agārasmā anagāriyaṁ pabbajito, taṁ vata me uppannā vā sukhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya ṭhassati, uppannā vā dukkhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya ṭhassatīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjatī”ti.

he was asked about it, and buddha explained the time when he let occupy his mind with a feeling

“Surely you must have had feelings so pleasant or so painful that they could occupy your mind?”
“Na hi nūna bhoto gotamassa uppajjati tathārūpā sukhā vedanā yathārūpā uppannā sukhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭheyya; na hi nūna bhoto gotamassa uppajjati tathārūpā dukkhā vedanā yathārūpā uppannā dukkhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭheyyā”ti. Variant: Na hi nūna → naha nūna (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed)

“How could I not, Aggivessana?
“Kiñhi no siyā, aggivessana?

here, in case of path to awakening one will let physical feeling occupy the mind

Then it occurred to me,
Tassa mayhaṁ, aggivessana, etadahosi:
‘Why am I afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities?’

‘kiṁ nu kho ahaṁ tassa sukhassa bhāyāmi, yaṁ taṁ sukhaṁ aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehī’ti?
Then I thought,
Tassa mayhaṁ, aggivessana, etadahosi:
‘I’m not afraid of that pleasure, for it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures or unskillful qualities.’
‘na kho ahaṁ tassa sukhassa bhāyāmi, yaṁ taṁ sukhaṁ aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehī’ti.

he needs restore his body to be able to feel a physical feeling what occupies his mind.

Then I thought,
Tassa mayhaṁ, aggivessana, etadahosi:
‘I can’t achieve that pleasure with a body so excessively emaciated. Why don’t I eat some solid food, some rice and porridge?’
‘na kho taṁ sukaraṁ sukhaṁ adhigantuṁ evaṁ adhimattakasimānaṁ pattakāyena, yannūnāhaṁ oḷārikaṁ āhāraṁ āhāreyyaṁ odanakummāsan’ti.
So I ate some solid food.
So kho ahaṁ, aggivessana, oḷārikaṁ āhāraṁ āhāresiṁ odanakummāsaṁ.

[salayatananirodha]

nice work!
I'll add a link to this thread on my similar research page here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/k/kaya/index.html

lol

You care to expand on your comment? Somebody puts in a fair amount of time to do research and share it, the least you can do is express appreciation or offer a comment with some value and content.

i appreciate all the work but it's funny because it was clear enough from that quote in the other thread that kāya is body and not mind
it's overkill

[Ceisiwr]

35. There are things to be realized with the body
AN 4.189
'atthi, bhikkhave, dhammā kāyena sacchikaraṇīyā'

Interesting! How does one realise dhammā with the physical body?

[Ceisiwr]

nice work!
I'll add a link to this thread on my similar research page here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/k/kaya/index.html

lol

You care to expand on your comment? Somebody puts in a fair amount of time to do research and share it, the least you can do is express appreciation or offer a comment with some value and content.

i appreciate all the work but it's funny because it was clear enough from that quote in the other thread that kāya is body and not mind
it's overkill

Why? Because it said “body”?

[waryoffolly]

35. There are things to be realized with the body
AN 4.189
'atthi, bhikkhave, dhammā kāyena sacchikaraṇīyā'

Interesting! How does one realise dhammā with the physical body?

Yes this is a clearcut case where it doesn’t mean physical body, and is used on its own. I agree.

In my view, despite not including phusitva, this also takes the idiomatic meaning of “personally/directly/viscerally”.

The usages where it doesn’t mean physical body, by my count, were vastly outnumbered by the cases where it must mean physical body (such as actions by body/speech/mind, usages in salayatana, etc)

[Ceisiwr]

35. There are things to be realized with the body
AN 4.189
'atthi, bhikkhave, dhammā kāyena sacchikaraṇīyā'

Interesting! How does one realise dhammā with the physical body?

Yes this is a clearcut case where it doesn’t mean physical body, and is used on its own. I agree.

In my view, despite not including phusitva, this also takes the idiomatic meaning of “personally/directly/viscerally”.

The usages where it doesn’t mean physical body, by my count, were vastly outnumbered by the cases where it must mean physical body (such as actions by body/speech/mind, usages in salayatana, etc)

I disagree. It clearly means the nāmakāya, since it is through contact at the nāmakāya that we come to know mental dhammā. I'll check to if there is a commentary here. I imagine it agrees with me.

[Ceisiwr]

38. With the mind made body the Buddha came up to me using iddhi
AN 8.30
'manomayena kāyena, iddhiyā upasaṅkami. '

How is a mind made body a physical body?

[Ceisiwr]

MN 70, SN 12.70
touching with the body formless attainments that go beyond form
'ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te kāyena phusitvā'

Obviously referring to the nāmakāya again.

[waryoffolly]

MN 70, SN 12.70
touching with the body formless attainments that go beyond form
'ye te santā vimokkhā atikkamma rūpe āruppā te kāyena phusitvā'

Obviously referring to the nāmakāya again.

Hi,

I already commented on these snippets (as well as the others you cite) in my original post, as well as how I interpret them. “Obviously” is subjective. Anyways, we’re really not that far apart on this interpretation-I read this idiomatically as “directly/personally”, and what is directly/personally experiencing the 8 liberations? —“one’s whole being” which includes mind, but clearly in the formless states this is restricted to just mind.

I do disagree with reading this as “nama-kaya” since the sutta in my view would have simply used this compound (or some other compound/word such as citta/mana to refer to mind as is used in the vast majority of clearcut cases where mind is meant) I think it is an idiomatic usage because the vast majority of “kayena” usages mean physical body.

The commentary says nama-kaya by the way. Either on this snippet or on one similar I don’t remember for sure which one.

[waryoffolly]

Interesting! How does one realise dhammā with the physical body?

Yes this is a clearcut case where it doesn’t mean physical body, and is used on its own. I agree.

In my view, despite not including phusitva, this also takes the idiomatic meaning of “personally/directly/viscerally”.

The usages where it doesn’t mean physical body, by my count, were vastly outnumbered by the cases where it must mean physical body (such as actions by body/speech/mind, usages in salayatana, etc)

I disagree. It clearly means the nāmakāya, since it is through contact at the nāmakāya that we come to know mental dhammā. I'll check to if there is a commentary here. I imagine it agrees with me.

Also I do think what you have here is a possible reading for this usage. I think the idiomatic usage works here as well with dhamma meaning “things” here instead of “external mental objects”.

(Yes the commentary for one of the passages mentioned in my OP as being cases where kayena can’t mean physical body does say nama-kaya. I don’t remember which though.)

[Ceisiwr]

Hi,

I already commented on these snippets (as well as the others you cite) in my original post, as well as how I interpret them. “Obviously” is subjective. Anyways, we’re really not that far apart on this interpretation-I read this idiomatically as “directly/personally”, and what is directly/personally experiencing the 8 liberations? —“one’s whole being” which includes mind, but clearly in the formless states this is restricted to just mind.

I do disagree with reading this as “nama-kaya” since the sutta in my view would have simply used this compound (or some other compound/word such as citta/mana to refer to mind as is used in the vast majority of clearcut cases where mind is meant) I think it is an idiomatic usage because the vast majority of “kayena” usages mean physical body.

The commentary says nama-kaya by the way. Either on this snippet or on one similar I don’t remember for sure which one.

It seems the commentary does indeed disagree with you:

"kāyenāti nāmakāyena. Sacchikaraṇīyāti paccakkhaṃ kātabbā.
Performed by the body via the nāmakāya. What ought to be done becomes evident and is able to be realised." - Manorathapūraṇī

This makes more sense than your "personally" interpretation. To know dhammā one first has to have mental contact with them. Theravāda has always preferred a literal interpretation of buddhavacana. I see that is apt here. There seems to be no basis for your hypothetical idiomatic interpretation of kāyena as "directly/personally".

[Ceisiwr]

Yes this is a clearcut case where it doesn’t mean physical body, and is used on its own. I agree.

In my view, despite not including phusitva, this also takes the idiomatic meaning of “personally/directly/viscerally”.

The usages where it doesn’t mean physical body, by my count, were vastly outnumbered by the cases where it must mean physical body (such as actions by body/speech/mind, usages in salayatana, etc)

I disagree. It clearly means the nāmakāya, since it is through contact at the nāmakāya that we come to know mental dhammā. I'll check to if there is a commentary here. I imagine it agrees with me.

Also I do think what you have here is a possible reading for this usage. I think the idiomatic usage works here as well with dhamma meaning “things” here instead of “external mental objects”.

(Yes the commentary for one of the passages mentioned in my OP as being cases where kayena can’t mean physical body does say nama-kaya. I don’t remember which though.)

dhammā likely means "the teachings", or specifically the hindrances and 7 awakening factors, but it could also mean the 6 sense bases and their objects. The commentary seems to take the former view here.