Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
waryoffolly
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:16 pm It seems the commentary does indeed disagree with you:

"kāyenāti nāmakāyena. Sacchikaraṇīyāti paccakkhaṃ kātabbā.
Performed by the body with the nāmakāya. What ought to be done becomes evident and is able to be realised."
- Manorathapūraṇī

This makes more sense than your "personally" interpretation. To know dhammā one first has to have mental contact with them. Theravāda has always preferred a literal interpretation of buddhavacana. I see that is apt here. There seems to be no basis for your hypothetical idiomatic interpretation of kāyena as "directly/personally".
For reasons given earlier I disagree that the idiomatic interpretation is without basis. Anyways, I have no problem potentially reading this as mind-body given your points earlier. It’s a valid possible reading for this specific usage if we take dhamma to refer to the sense sphere instead of ‘teachings’ or ‘things’.

It doesn’t change the fact that the vast majority of usages of kayena are clear-cut examples meaning ‘with/by means of body’, contrasted with either verbal and mental actions or contrasted with the other sense spheres. Although, I guess you may disagree that this is the common usage. In which case you should search for each of the usages above and see how many times they occur relative to each other.

So yes, context matters to determine the meaning of kayena, but the default translation should be the most common usage, unless the context demands we change it.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by Ceisiwr »

waryoffolly wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:35 pm
So yes, context matters to determine the meaning of kayena, but the default translation should be the most common usage, unless the context demands we change it.
Which would make kāya the mental body, in the Jhāna pericope and the nibbāna pericope.
For reasons given earlier I disagree that the idiomatic interpretation is without basis.
Not that you have shown. So far it is a baseless assertion.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
waryoffolly
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by waryoffolly »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:45 pm
waryoffolly wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:35 pm
So yes, context matters to determine the meaning of kayena, but the default translation should be the most common usage, unless the context demands we change it.
Which would make kāya the mental body, in the Jhāna pericope and the nibbāna pericope.
The context in question is open to interpretation. I’m not interested in discussing this context with you, since it’s already been done to death on this forum, as well as in ancient commentaries. Nothing new to say!
For reasons given earlier I disagree that the idiomatic interpretation is without basis.
Not that you have shown. So far it is a baseless assertion.
I don’t really have anything else to say to you about this currently, if you disagree and view my comments as “baseless” that’s fine by me!
auto
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 5:05 pm
38. With the mind made body the Buddha came up to me using iddhi
AN 8.30
'manomayena kāyena, iddhiyā upasaṅkami. '
How is a mind made body a physical body?

:popcorn:
Body what is made by the mind? literally a physical body.
Annihilationists are wrong to say that during body disintegration the internal elements return to external elements.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.02.0.than.html wrote: "Another time I approached Ajita Kesakambalin and,
..
A person is a composite of four primary elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with the (external) earth-substance..
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Assaji
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by Assaji »

Thank you for the thorough work!

I wonder whether the neighboring word in the jhana formula, "paṭisaṃvedeti" is even closer correlated with physicality.
waryoffolly
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by waryoffolly »

Assaji wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:15 pm Thank you for the thorough work!

I wonder whether the neighboring word in the jhana formula, "paṭisaṃvedeti" is even closer correlated with physicality.
I’ve never considered that before. I’ll take a look sometime this week using the digital pali reader, and let you know what I think.

Currently I’m looking at the usages of piti (currently not making a catalogue though, although it would be easier, less hits, than with kayena!). The most interesting thing I’ve found so far is that there are several mentions of jhana that are not commonly discussed which use viveka-piti/viveka-piti-sukha as synecdoche for jhana.
waryoffolly
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by waryoffolly »

waryoffolly wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:34 pm
Assaji wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 4:15 pm Thank you for the thorough work!

I wonder whether the neighboring word in the jhana formula, "paṭisaṃvedeti" is even closer correlated with physicality.
I’ve never considered that before. I’ll take a look sometime this week using the digital pali reader, and let you know what I think.
I actually took a brief look today. It looks like patisamvedeti is not particularly correlated with bodily experience. Instead it just means 'experiences' whether that's bodily or mental-I see many usages where it's referring to experiences that are mental-for example in DN 10.2 para. 5:

' so iminā ariyena sīlakkhandhena samannāgato ajjhattaṃ anavajjasukhaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti'

Which I take as a reference to experiencing pamojja based on having good sila, and as such is likely referring to a mental experience. Also from MN 13:

'dukkhaṃ domanassaṃ paṭisaṃvedeti'

Here dukkha and domanassa are likely referencing to the two pain faculties since they are used next to each other. So here we likely have patisamvedeti used to describe experiencing bodily and mental pain.
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by sphairos »

everyone in this topic would benefit from careful reading of this new and brilliant article by E. Shulman:

Embodied Transcendence: The Buddha’s Body in the Pāli Nikāyas

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/3/179 ... s-12-00179
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How true are your ways?
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by salayatananirodha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:36 pm
salayatananirodha wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:30 pm
frank k wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:41 pm nice work!
I'll add a link to this thread on my similar research page here:
https://lucid24.org/tped/k/kaya/index.html



You care to expand on your comment? Somebody puts in a fair amount of time to do research and share it, the least you can do is express appreciation or offer a comment with some value and content.
i appreciate all the work but it's funny because it was clear enough from that quote in the other thread that kāya is body and not mind
it's overkill
Why? Because it said “body”?
no, because of the context, and because the buddha intentionally spoke in a way that would make things as simple as possible to understand.
it would make no sense to put 'mind' in where 'body' was in that quote. tbh you're making yourself look ridiculous and should stop. tbh tho this is a really good example of how commentaries can fail at revealing and making plain the dhamma, and in fact do the opposite. i'm not concerned about jhāna debates, just the true dhamma.
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
waryoffolly
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Re: Catalogue of Instrumental Usage of Kaya (Kayena)

Post by waryoffolly »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:45 pm everyone in this topic would benefit from careful reading of this new and brilliant article by E. Shulman:

Embodied Transcendence: The Buddha’s Body in the Pāli Nikāyas

https://www.mdpi.com/2077-1444/12/3/179 ... s-12-00179

I read it. It was interesting. Maybe we should create a new thread to discuss it.
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