confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

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frank k
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confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

Post by frank k »

abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments?
Is it talking about a human dwelling in jhana, or a brahma realm being in rupa vacara doing jhana?

And why would a human or Brahma in jhana, supposedly percipient of 'rupa', be doing four jhanas which abhidhamma is saying is an arupa attainment "bhāveti ajjhattaṃ arūpasaññī " (meditator not percipient of internal rupa)

Pali:
Abhi
Abhi Dh.s., 1. cittuppādakaṇḍaṃ, rūpāvacarakusalaṃ, abhibhāyatanāni parittāni, para. 1 ⇒

204. katame dhammā kusalā? yasmiṃ samaye rūpūpapattiyā maggaṃ bhāveti ajjhattaṃ arūpasaññī bahiddhā rūpāni passati parittāni tāni abhibhuyya jānāmi passāmīti vivicceva kāmehi. pe. paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati, tasmiṃ samaye phasso hoti. pe. avikkhepo hoti. pe. ime dhammā kusalā.

Abhi Dh.s., 1. cittuppādakaṇḍaṃ, rūpāvacarakusalaṃ, abhibhāyatanāni parittāni, para. 2 ⇒

205. katame dhammā kusalā? yasmiṃ samaye rūpūpapattiyā maggaṃ bhāveti ajjhattaṃ arūpasaññī bahiddhā rūpāni passati parittāni, tāni abhibhuyya jānāmi passāmīti vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā. pe. dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ. pe. tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ. pe. catutthaṃ jhānaṃ. pe. paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ. pe. pañcamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati, tasmiṃ samaye phasso hoti. pe. avikkhepo hoti. pe. ime dhammā kusalā.

Rhys David Eng. transl.
Method 2: The Stations of Mastery (abhibhayatanani).
1. “Forms as Limited”
(a and b) Fourfold and Fivefold Jhāna.

Which are the states that are good?

When, that he may attain to the heavens of Form, he
cultivates the way thereto, and, unconscious of any part of his corporeal self, but seeing external objects to be limited, gets the mastery over them with the thought “I know, I see!” and so, aloof from sensuous appetites, aloof from evil ideas, enters into and abides in the First Jhāna, etc… . then the contact, etc., that arises—these … are states that are good.

Repeat in the case of the 2nd to the 4ih Jhāna on the Fourfold System, and of the 2nd to the 5th Jhāna on the Fivefold System.
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Dweller
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Re: confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

Post by Dweller »

Not perceive it to what degree?

And is it obligatory?

I see nothing really conclusive. And maybe I'm wrong, but ability to percieve external objects could be something impossible in harder jhana.
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frank k
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Re: confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

Post by frank k »

Dweller wrote: Tue May 18, 2021 5:44 pm Not perceive it to what degree?

And is it obligatory?

I see nothing really conclusive. And maybe I'm wrong, but ability to percieve external objects could be something impossible in harder jhana.
If you want to be technical, VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) you'd have to emerge from the frozen stupor first and be in post VRJ "access concentration" to be in the mode of perceiving external objects. It's doesn't have to be perceiving solid real rupa objects (like people, places, things), as one would be doing with divine eye.
It could be as simple as a mentally create rupa visual image of a color kasina.

in 8 vimokkha and 8 abhi-bha-ayatana, they call both of those type of rupa (solid real object, or mentally created visual image) external rupa, because it's external to the four elements rupa of the meditator's physical body.

But in Vism., they redefine the internal 'rupa' of the meditator's physical body, as the external rupa of mentally created visual image, in order to claim that the 4 jhanas 'rupa' is not referring to the meditator's body.

Digitally Searching through Abhidhamma books and and Vism., I'm trying to get to the bottom of this and first of all see if Abhdhamma even agrees with how Vism. redefines the 'rupa' of four jhanas.
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Re: confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

Post by auto »

You might not realize that the state where you are in lost of thought, unconscious, unaware is only what ordinary person calls like that.
Once you are out of that state you may feel the effects on a body and review that state and even notice jhana factors. In jhana there is no thoughts of i enter jhana or i am in a jhana.
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Gwi
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Re: confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

Post by Gwi »

It's same.

I suggest to using luke this:
- Jhānå 1, jhānå 2 ... jhānå 8 for Suttå
- Jhānå I, jhānå II ... jhānå IX for Abhidhammå

Jhānå 8 = jhānå IX (not VIII).


It's like a person who finishes a diploma
And then becomes a graduate, so it takes (added)
two more years to make it 5 years.

If directly undergraduate, only 4 years.
Bahagia Tidak Harus Selalu Bersama

Dhammapadå 370
"Tinggalkanlah 5 (belantara) dan patahkan 5 (belenggu rendah),
Serta kembangkan 5 potensi (4 iddhipādā + 1 ussoḷhi).
Bhikkhu yang telah menaklukkan 5 kungkungan (belenggu tinggi),
Lebih layak disebut 'orang yang telah mengarungi air baih (saṃsārå)'."
asahi
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Re: confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

Post by asahi »

frank k wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 3:20 pm
in 8 vimokkha and 8 abhi-bha-ayatana, they call both of those type of rupa (solid real object, or mentally created visual image) external rupa, because it's external to the four elements rupa of the meditator's physical body.

But in Vism., they redefine the internal 'rupa' of the meditator's physical body, as the external rupa of mentally created visual image, in order to claim that the 4 jhanas 'rupa' is not referring to the meditator's body.
Internal visual "rupa" are but mental object , it is related to the sanna .
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SarathW
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Re: confirm: abhihamma redefines 4 jhanas as arupa attainments.

Post by SarathW »

In Abhidhamma four Rupa Jhana explain as five by separating Vitakka and Vicara as two separate ones.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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