Vedana as sense impression

[Assaji]

Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo said in his talk “Dhamma Arises at the Heart”: “Ajahn Maha Bua said real dhamma occurs at the centre of the chest. Take a look: happiness comes from the centre of the chest. That is, mental happiness. Physical happiness happens across the body. Suffering of mind happens at the centre of the chest. All goodness and badness, greed, anger and delusion, arise from there.”

I've just found a Visuddhimagga (XIV, 128) quote linking cetasikā vedanā to the heart-base:

Vism 2, 14. khandhaniddeso, vedanākkhandhakathā, para. 7 ⇒

aniṭṭhārammaṇānubhavanalakkhaṇaṃ domanassaṃ, yathā tathā vā aniṭṭhākārasambhogarasaṃ, cetasikābādhapaccupaṭṭhānaṃ, ekanteneva hadayavatthupadaṭṭhānaṃ.

Grief has the characteristic of experiencing an undesirable object. Its function is to exploit in one way or another the undesirable aspect. It is manifested as mental affliction. Its proximate cause is invariably the heart-basis.

[Assaji]

Do you think dukkhavedaniyaṁ is physical or mental, or both?

Both imagination-door (manodvārika) and five-door (pañcadvārika) contacts can be experienced as painful.

[Ceisiwr]

Do you think dukkhavedaniyaṁ is physical or mental, or both?

Both imagination-door (manodvārika) and five-door (pañcadvārika) contacts can be experienced as painful.

I agree with that. In the link I gave above I argued for a connection between dukkhavedaniyaṁ and kāyikañca. This seems to go against the commentarial line, which it does pain me to do. I am happy in being proved wrong, but so far it seems the traditional explanation of the Salla Sutta is wrong possibly through taking kāyikañca too literally. Theravada is known to prefer a literal interpretation of words and texts.

[Assaji]

This seems to go against the commentarial line, which it does pain me to do. I am happy in being proved wrong, but so far it seems the traditional explanation of the Salla Sutta is wrong possibly through taking kāyikañca too literally. Theravada is known to prefer a literal interpretation of words and texts.

Of course, it's wrong to ignore the tradition and take kāyika too literally. As I wrote in the thread on cetasika and kāyika, kāyikā vedanā are those which happen due to contact at five bodily sense-doors.

[Ceisiwr]

This seems to go against the commentarial line, which it does pain me to do. I am happy in being proved wrong, but so far it seems the traditional explanation of the Salla Sutta is wrong possibly through taking kāyikañca too literally. Theravada is known to prefer a literal interpretation of words and texts.

Of course, it's wrong to ignore the tradition and take kāyika too literally. As I wrote in the thread on cetasika and kāyika, kāyikā vedanā are those which happen due to contact at five bodily sense-doors.

Yes, I’m arguing that they occur at all 6.

[Coëmgenu]

What would it mean for the manovinnana to experience kayika vedana?

I have an idea what you might say. Ven Vasubandhu describes the 6th consciousness as the "root" of the five, and that all the activity of the 5 is experienced through the 6th, but that is not Theravada. I also don't know if that's your argument.

[Ceisiwr]

What would it mean for the manovinnana to experience kayika vedana?

I have an idea what you might say. Ven Vasubandhu describes the 6th consciousness as the "root" of the five, and that all the activity of the 5 is experienced through the 6th, but that is not Theravada. I also don't know if that's your argument.

To experience painful, pleasurable or neutral mental contacts. These can then be the basis for sorrow, lamentation etc. The same as with contact at any other base. I’ve set it out more clearly here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40268

[frank k]

Two questions for you:
1. what's the implication of 3 vedanas originating at the chest and heart base?
2. what do you propose as the best translation for vedana?
(both vedana and vedeti are related to root 'vid')
I experimented with "experienced sensations" in my translations in some places, because sometimes the verb vedeti is not so much talking about 3 types of vedana, but just intellectual experience and knowledge of what has come into contact.
But now I'm leaning towards 'feeling", even though I dislike it for the same reasons as you do implying emotions, but it seems like every major English translator translates it that way, so I'm just conceding that we can accept that in English Buddhism, people associate "feeling" with 3 types of vedana.

Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo said in his talk “Dhamma Arises at the Heart”: “Ajahn Maha Bua said real dhamma occurs at the centre of the chest. Take a look: happiness comes from the centre of the chest. That is, mental happiness. Physical happiness happens across the body. Suffering of mind happens at the centre of the chest. All goodness and badness, greed, anger and delusion, arise from there.”

I've just found a Visuddhimagga (XIV, 128) quote linking cetasikā vedanā to the heart-base:

Vism 2, 14. khandhaniddeso, vedanākkhandhakathā, para. 7 ⇒

aniṭṭhārammaṇānubhavanalakkhaṇaṃ domanassaṃ, yathā tathā vā aniṭṭhākārasambhogarasaṃ, cetasikābādhapaccupaṭṭhānaṃ, ekanteneva hadayavatthupadaṭṭhānaṃ.

Grief has the characteristic of experiencing an undesirable object. Its function is to exploit in one way or another the undesirable aspect. It is manifested as mental affliction. Its proximate cause is invariably the heart-basis.

[Assaji]

Two questions for you:
1. what's the implication of 3 vedanas originating at the chest and heart base?

To practice the second Satipaṭṭhāna and to develop corresponding Enlightenment factors, it is essential to know where exactly to observe mind-based sensations - mainly at the heart-base.

2. what do you propose as the best translation for vedana?

I propose "sensations".

(both vedana and vedeti are related to root 'vid')

They may be related in etymology, but they are quite different in meaning.

But now I'm leaning towards 'feeling", even though I dislike it for the same reasons as you do implying emotions, but it seems like every major English translator translates it that way, so I'm just conceding that we can accept that in English Buddhism, people associate "feeling" with 3 types of vedana.

This may be OK for intellectual reading, but practical applications require more precision.

[Assaji]

Ven Vasubandhu describes the 6th consciousness as the "root" of the five, and that all the activity of the 5 is experienced through the 6th, but that is not Theravada.

"... mano nesa.m gocara-visaya.m paccanubhoti"

"mano enjoys the function-spheres of the other senses"

Mahavedalla sutta M. I.295

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=5538