Vedana as sense impression

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asahi
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Vedana as sense impression

Post by asahi »

Is this a correct translation ? Or is feeling much appropriate ? If refers to the sense impressions that would be vinnana .
Usually when says impression it appears to be a mental triggering response .
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Assaji
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by Assaji »

Hi Asahi,
asahi wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:39 am Is this a correct translation ? Or is feeling much appropriate ? If refers to the sense impressions that would be vinnana .
Usually when says impression it appears to be a mental triggering response .
Vedanā are rather "sensations".

For comprehensive discussion, see: A survey of the use of the term vedana (“sensations”) in the Pali Nikayas and the Palistudy group messages 4669-4680.
asahi
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by asahi »

Assaji wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:55 am Hi Asahi,
asahi wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 9:39 am Is this a correct translation ? Or is feeling much appropriate ? If refers to the sense impressions that would be vinnana .
Usually when says impression it appears to be a mental triggering response .
Vedanā are rather "sensations".

For comprehensive discussion, see: A survey of the use of the term vedana (“sensations”) in the Pali Nikayas and the Palistudy group messages 4669-4680.
Hi Assaji ,

Here's the definition of dictionary :
a physical feeling resulting from something that happens to or comes into contact with the body .

If we follows this meaning it is a physical felt not mentality . However some explanations tends to say it involve physical felt and mental imprint ?

:thanks:
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Assaji
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by Assaji »

asahi wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 10:03 am Here's the definition of dictionary :
a physical feeling resulting from something that happens to or comes into contact with the body .

If we follows this meaning it is a physical felt not mentality . However some explanations tends to say it involve physical felt and mental imprint ?
There are two kinds of sensations (vedanā): body-based (kāyika) and mind-based (cetasika). Body-based sensations arise due to contact via five bodily sense doors: sight, hearing, etc. Mind-based sensations arise due to the contact via the sixth door of perception, the imagination (mano).

In the Salla Sutta (SN 36.6) mind-based sensations are treated on par with body-based sensations, there is no radical difference in their experience. Since the Western people rarely recognize mind-based sensations, they are rarely mentioned in everyday speech, but such usage sometimes occurs, as in: “He had the uncomfortable sensation that he was being watched.”

The term "vedanā" is often translated as "feelings", however the feelings like fear, love, etc. are "saṅkhārā", not "vedanā".

Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo said in his talk “Dhamma Arises at the Heart”: “Ajahn Maha Bua said real dhamma occurs at the centre of the chest. Take a look: happiness comes from the centre of the chest. That is, mental happiness. Physical happiness happens across the body. Suffering of mind happens at the centre of the chest. All goodness and badness, greed, anger and delusion, arise from there.”
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by sphairos »

a good translation is "feeling tone" -- it is not just a feeling in its entirety and ambiguity, but only a pleasant, unpleasant or neutral aspect of it.

The translation "feeling tone/feeling tones" is preferred nowadays by such illustrious scholars as P. Skilling, ven. Anālayo and ven. Dhammadinnā.
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by Ceisiwr »

Assaji wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:29 pm There are two kinds of sensations (vedanā): body-based (kāyika) and mind-based (cetasika). Body-based sensations arise due to contact via five bodily sense doors: sight, hearing, etc. Mind-based sensations arise due to the contact via the sixth door of perception, the imagination (mano).

In the Salla Sutta (SN 36.6) mind-based sensations are treated on par with body-based sensations, there is no radical difference in their experience. Since the Western people rarely recognize mind-based sensations, they are rarely mentioned in everyday speech, but such usage sometimes occurs, as in: “He had the uncomfortable sensation that he was being watched.”
Doubtful. A preferable reading would be direct feeling, including at the mind, and emotional reaction to it. Based on your reading an Arahant would have no mental vedana, which means no mental contact at all.
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Assaji
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by Assaji »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:39 pm a good translation is "feeling tone" -- it is not just a feeling in its entirety and ambiguity, but only a pleasant, unpleasant or neutral aspect of it.

The translation "feeling tone/feeling tones" is preferred nowadays by such illustrious scholars as P. Skilling, ven. Anālayo and ven. Dhammadinnā.
I know well about this translation. What is the reasoning behind it? So far, I have not found any convincing explanation.

Akincano Weber wrote:
Given the old texts’ recurrent suggestion to understand vedanā as a single mental evaluative process forming three possible – and mutually exclusive – reactions to mental and physical stimuli as either pleasant, unpleasant or neither-unpleasant-nor-pleasant, I render vedanā as ‘feeling-tone’ or, preferably, as ‘hedonic tone’, from Greek hēdonē for ‘pleasure’.
Where has he found such a recurrent suggestion? And why it is deemed necessary to divulge aspects from phenomena? If someone described clouds as light, dark or grey, would clouds be considered aspects of colour? Would we consider clouds as evaluative processes of colour?

In practice, mind-based (cetasika) vedanā have location, size, intensity. They are not just "tone" or "aspect". In the pre-reform Theravada meditation system, they are developed at the center of the chest, navel, and numerous other places. As the practice develops, they gradually pervade the body. Along the way, one also experiences a great variety of very specific mind-based painful bodily phenomena. "Sensations" fits them much better.

As for the body-based (kāyika) vedanā, they are a host of phenomena caused by numerous mundane reasons, like uneven care and harsh treatment, as described in the Sivaka Sutta (SN 36.21):
"Master Gotama, there are some priests & contemplatives who are of this doctrine, this view: Whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before. Now what does Master Gotama say to that?"

[The Buddha:] "There are cases where some sensations arise based on bile. You yourself should know how some sensations arise based on bile. Even the world is agreed on how some sensations arise based on bile. So any priests & contemplatives who are of the doctrine & view that whatever an individual feels — pleasure, pain, neither-pleasure-nor-pain — is entirely caused by what was done before — slip past what they themselves know, slip past what is agreed on by the world. Therefore I say that those priests & contemplatives are wrong."

"There are cases where some sensations arise based on phlegm... based on internal winds... based on a combination of bodily humors... from the change of the seasons... from uneven care of the body... from harsh treatment... from the result of kamma. ..."
When such things happen with the body, it would be more appropriate to call them sensations.

When the Buddha was injured by a stone sliver, as described in the Sakalika Sutta (SN 1.38):
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily sensations that developed within him — painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable — but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert.
he experienced just painful sensations, and not some "feeling tones".
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:44 pm A preferable reading would be direct feeling, including at the mind, and emotional reaction to it.
Let me suggest some quotes specially for you:
It should be first made clear that, in Buddhist psychology, "feeling" (Pali: vedana) is the bare sensation noted as pleasant, unpleasant (painful) and neutral (indifferent). Hence, it should not be confused with emotion which, though arising from the basic feeling, adds to it likes or dislikes of varying intensity, as well as other thought processes.

...

When emotions follow, they do so in accordance with the next link of Dependent Origination: "Feeling conditions Craving" (vedana-paccaya tanha).

The feeling that arises from contact with visual forms, sounds, odors, and tastes is always a neutral feeling. Pleasant or unpleasant feelings do not always follow in relation to these four sense perceptions; but when they follow, they are then an additional stage of the perceptual process, subsequent to the neutral feeling which is the first response.

But bodily impressions (touch, pressure, etc.) can cause either pleasant or unpleasant feelings.

Mental impressions can cause gladness, sadness or neutral (indifferent) feeling.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el303.html
Since feeling, in its primary state, simply registers the impact of the object, in itself it is quite devoid of any emotional bias. Only when volitional evaluations are admitted will there appear emotions such as desire and love, aversion and hate, anxiety and fear, as well as distorting views. But these admixtures need not arise, as the emotions are not inseparable parts of the respective feelings. In fact, many of the weaker impressions we receive during the day stop at the mere registering of a very faint and brief feeling, without any further emotional reaction. This shows that it is psychologically possible to stop at the bare feeling and that this can be done intentionally with the help of mindfulness and self-restraint, even in cases when the stimulus to convert feelings into emotions is strong. Through actual experience it can thus be confirmed that the ever-revolving round of dependent origination can be stopped at the stage of feeling, and that there is no inherent necessity for feeling to be followed by craving. Here we encounter feeling as a key factor on the path of liberation and can see why, in the Buddhist tradition, the contemplation of feeling has always been highly regarded as an effective aid on the path.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed061.htm
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by sphairos »

Assaji wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 2:53 pm
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 12:39 pm a good translation is "feeling tone" -- it is not just a feeling in its entirety and ambiguity, but only a pleasant, unpleasant or neutral aspect of it.

The translation "feeling tone/feeling tones" is preferred nowadays by such illustrious scholars as P. Skilling, ven. Anālayo and ven. Dhammadinnā.
I know well about this translation. What is the reasoning behind it? So far, I have not found any convincing explanation.
It was not a response to you , but a suggestion for the OP.

I just pointed out how established and brilliant modern scholars translate the term.

Regarding your translations, analysis of "terms" etc. -- I am not a fan.

For instance, vedanā is not "sensation" -- "sensation" in ordinary English is something coming from touch/ing. "Sensation" is rather a translation for phoṭṭhabba. And I don't think anyone translates or understands vedanā as "sensation" among active scholars/translators. "Feeling" is a much better English word.

And you prove that vedanā are "feeling tones" with your quotes -- most of them have pleasurable/unpleasant/neutral.

"Feeling tones" are discussed here
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... vename.pdf

Here pp. 117-125 ff.
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... ctives.pdf
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Nicolas
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by Nicolas »

This sutta may be of interest:
Aṭṭhasata Sutta (SN 36.22) wrote: And which one-hundred-and-eight exposition is a Dhamma exposition? There is the exposition whereby I have spoken of two feelings, the exposition whereby I have spoken of three feelings… five… six… eighteen… thirty-six… one hundred and eight feelings.

And which are the two feelings? Physical & mental. These are the two feelings.

And which are the three feelings? A feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings.

And which are the five feelings? The pleasure-faculty, the pain-faculty, the happiness-faculty, the distress-faculty, the equanimity-faculty. These are the five feelings.

And which are the six feelings? A feeling born of eye-contact, a feeling born of ear-contact… nose-contact… tongue-contact… body-contact… intellect-contact. These are the six feelings.

And which are the eighteen feelings? Six happiness-explorations, six distress-explorations, six equanimity-explorations. These are the eighteen feelings.

And which are the thirty-six feelings? Six kinds of house-based happiness & six kinds of renunciation-based happiness; six kinds of house-based distress & six kinds of renunciation-based distress; six kinds of house-based equanimity & six kinds of renunciation-based equanimity. These are the thirty-six feelings.

And which are the one hundred and eight feelings? Thirty-six past feelings, thirty-six future feelings, and thirty-six present feelings. These are the one hundred and eight feelings.

And this, monks, is the one-hundred-and-eight exposition that is a Dhamma exposition.
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

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Nicolas wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 4:11 pm This sutta may be of interest:
Aṭṭhasata Sutta (SN 36.22) wrote: And which one-hundred-and-eight exposition is a Dhamma exposition? There is the exposition whereby I have spoken of two feelings, the exposition whereby I have spoken of three feelings… five… six… eighteen… thirty-six… one hundred and eight feelings.

And which are the two feelings? Physical & mental. These are the two feelings.

And which are the three feelings? A feeling of pleasure, a feeling of pain, a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. These are the three feelings.

And which are the five feelings? The pleasure-faculty, the pain-faculty, the happiness-faculty, the distress-faculty, the equanimity-faculty. These are the five feelings.

And which are the six feelings? A feeling born of eye-contact, a feeling born of ear-contact… nose-contact… tongue-contact… body-contact… intellect-contact. These are the six feelings.

And which are the eighteen feelings? Six happiness-explorations, six distress-explorations, six equanimity-explorations. These are the eighteen feelings.

And which are the thirty-six feelings? Six kinds of house-based happiness & six kinds of renunciation-based happiness; six kinds of house-based distress & six kinds of renunciation-based distress; six kinds of house-based equanimity & six kinds of renunciation-based equanimity. These are the thirty-six feelings.

And which are the one hundred and eight feelings? Thirty-six past feelings, thirty-six future feelings, and thirty-six present feelings. These are the one hundred and eight feelings.

And this, monks, is the one-hundred-and-eight exposition that is a Dhamma exposition.
Very useful.
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by pegembara »

Vedana can be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral.
It is a reaction to sights, sounds, smells, taste, touch, thoughts.
You experience something that you like, dislike or neither.
Arahants and even unborn babies have vedana.
“Monks, feeling born of eye-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling born of ear-contact.… Feeling born of nose-contact.… Feeling born of tongue-contact.… Feeling born of body-contact.… Feeling born of intellect-contact is inconstant, changeable, alterable…
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by Assaji »

sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pm I just pointed out how established and brilliant modern scholars translate the term.
Various scholars provide different translations. Let's rather discuss the term itself.
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pmFor instance, vedanā is not "sensation" -- "sensation" in ordinary English is something coming from touch/ing.
Why do you think so? Let's look up a dictionary:
Sensation:

1. a physical feeling

a tingling sensation

sensation of: a sensation of nausea

1a. a feeling, especially a strange one, caused by a particular experience

He had the uncomfortable sensation that he was being watched.

2. the ability to feel something, especially by touching it

When she awoke she had lost all sensation in both of her legs.

3. an event that causes a lot of excitement and interest

The show caused a sensation when it was first performed.
https://www.macmillandictionary.com/dic ... /sensation

As you see in 1a, a sensation can also be caused by a particular mental experience.
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pm"Sensation" is rather a translation for phoṭṭhabba.
Sorry, but you are gravely mistaken. Phoṭṭhabba means "(what is) tangible; a tangible object", as described in the Margaret Cone's dictionary.
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pmAnd I don't think anyone translates or understands vedanā as "sensation" among active scholars/translators.
Now you know I do :smile:

You can also look up the PED:
Vedanā Vedanā (f.) [fr. ved˚: see vedeti; cp. Epic Sk. vedanā] feeling, sensation
https://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/app/p ... rchhws=yes
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pm"Feeling" is a much better English word.
It's much more ambiguous, and produces misunderstandings.

The same Akincano Weber wrote:
‘Feeling’, the English term most translators have opted for when rendering vedanā, is a notorious semantic contortionist – morphing according to context into a bewildering display of denotations; these range from ‘mood’, ‘sentiency’, ‘subjective emotion’, ‘affect’, ‘perception’, ‘conscious state’, to ‘sense of touch’, ‘impression’ and occasionally even to ‘thought’; any of these meanings can be intended by the term ‘feeling’, as is borne out by examples easily found. Any translator, unless they explicitly narrow the term down to a singular meaning, must in view of the sheer range of its applications consider ‘feeling’ as one of the worst possible candidates for rendering the Buddhist technical vedanā since all the different English meanings will invariably be conflated with the Buddhist concept the term purports to translate.
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pmAnd you prove that vedanā are "feeling tones" with your quotes -- most of them have pleasurable/unpleasant/neutral.
Does one prove that clouds are colours by classifying them as light, dark or grey?
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pm"Feeling tones" are discussed here
https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... vename.pdf
Thank you, but I don't find there any reasoning behind the "feeling tone" rendering.
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by asahi »

Feeling-tone is the way we take in experience, the way sights, sounds, smells, tastes, physical sensations, and thoughts get immediately filtered as pleasant, unpleasant, or neither .
But the definition appears to be of emotive , no ? Its meaning not just something belongs to physical sensation .
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Re: Vedana as sense impression

Post by sphairos »

Assaji wrote: Thu May 20, 2021 11:41 am
It's just the way English language works.
sensation noun
the ability to feel something physically, especially by touching, or a physical feeling that results from this ability:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictio ... /sensation

Here is, for instance, a discussion of a "double sensation" by a famous Irish philosopher

https://dermotmoran.com/wp-content/uplo ... yToday.pdf

"double sensation" is "double touching".
sphairos wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 3:19 pm
Sorry, but you are gravely mistaken. Phoṭṭhabba means "(what is) tangible; a tangible object",
No, I am not. "Tangible" is a Hybrid Buddhist English word that is hardly used in English language.

Your favorite Ajahn Thanissaro translates it as "(tactile) sensation"
"What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All.

iñca bhikkhave sabbaṃ: cakkhuñceva rūpā ca sotañca saddā ca ghānañca gandhā ca jivhā ca rasā ca kāyo ca phoṭṭhabbā ca mano ca dhammā ca idaṃ vuccati bhikkhave sabbaṃ.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Note, that he has "sensation" only for "phoṭṭhabbā". In Buddhist parlance phoṭṭhabbā is everything to be sensed by touch, so it may be summarized simply as a "sensation".
It's much more ambiguous, and produces misunderstandings.
It suits "vedanā" very well, and is undoubtedly better than "sensation". To narrow its meaning down "feeling tone" is a very good innovation.

PTS PED has for vedanā - "Three modes of feeling (usually understood whenever mention is made of “tisso vedanā”): sukhā (pleasant), dukkhā (painful) adukkha-m-asukhā (indifferent) "
As you see in 1a, a sensation can also be caused by a particular mental experience.


I didn't say it can't.

In general, as far as I understand you are not a native English speaker -- why do you think you can translate something into English better than native English philologists and scholars?
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