Vedana as sense impression

[Ceisiwr]

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Let's try this another way. For the Arahant there will still be mental dhammas, mind base, mind consciousness and contact. Do they experience painful vedanā based on that contact? This will go back to if there is such a thing as a purely mental contact. If there is, then there will be vedanā of the 3 kinds experienced there. My reading then is that the Arahants still experience painful vedanā based on purely mental contact, but as with bodily contact they do not sorrow on the basis of this.

[Assaji]

Let's try this another way. For the Arahant there will still be mental dhammas, mind base, mind consciousness and contact. Do they experience painful vedanā based on that contact? This will go back to if there is such a thing as a purely mental contact. If there is, then there will be vedanā of the 3 kinds experienced there. My reading then is that the Arahants still experience painful vedanā based on purely mental contact, but as with bodily contact they do not sorrow on the basis of this.

Firstly, the Salla Sutta clearly states that Arahants in this case don't experience mind-based painful vedanā:

So ekaṁ vedanaṁ vedayati—kāyikaṁ, na cetasikaṁ.

Secondly, Arahants are not somehow limited in their sensations. However, they do have a choice. Do you see people crawling on the streets? They can crawl, but they don't need to suffer this. Similarly, Arahants don't cause themselves extra suffering. When something unpleasant happens, they immediately return to equanimity, as described in the Indriyabahavana Sutta. The painful mind-based sensation doesn't have a chance to form.

The Buddha says in the Salla Sutta: "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person ... beats his breast". Why do people beat their breast? To deaden the pain in the middle of the chest - i.e. painful mind-based vedanā. The ultimate level of self-control is not to experience this pain at all.

[Ceisiwr]

Let's try this another way. For the Arahant there will still be mental dhammas, mind base, mind consciousness and contact. Do they experience painful vedanā based on that contact? This will go back to if there is such a thing as a purely mental contact. If there is, then there will be vedanā of the 3 kinds experienced there. My reading then is that the Arahants still experience painful vedanā based on purely mental contact, but as with bodily contact they do not sorrow on the basis of this.

Firstly, the Salla Sutta clearly states that Arahants in this case don't experience mind-based painful vedanā:

So ekaṁ vedanaṁ vedayati—kāyikaṁ, na cetasikaṁ.

Secondly, Arahants are not somehow limited in their sensations. However, they do have a choice. Do you see people crawling on the streets? They can crawl, but they don't need to suffer this. Similarly, Arahants don't cause themselves extra suffering. When something unpleasant happens, they immediately return to equanimity, as described in the Indriyabahavana Sutta. The painful mind-based sensation doesn't have a chance to form.

The Buddha says in the Salla Sutta: "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person ... beats his breast". Why do people beat their breast? To deaden the pain in the middle of the chest - i.e. painful mind-based vedanā. The ultimate level of self-control is not to experience this pain at all.

It says they do not experience sorrow, lamentation etc. Are these the only mind-based vedanā available? Do not wordlings and Arahants experience the normal 3 types of vedanā, which always arise dependent on any type of contact?

the mind element, and mental phenomena that are agreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, a pleasant feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are disagreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as painful, a painful feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are a basis for equanimity, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling arises.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.129/en/bodhi

The mind here experiences purely mental pain (dukkhavedaniyaṁ) and pleasure (sukhavedaniyaṁ), the same words to explain painful and pleasurable contact at the other 5 senses. How do you account for this?

I should clarify I'm not saying all dukkhavedaniyaṁ & sukhavedaniyaṁ is mental. Rather, dukkhavedaniyaṁ & sukhavedaniyaṁ seem to refer to the raw experience itself, as painful or pleasurable, at any of the 6 sense doors. It seems then the sorrow etc of the Salla Sutta comes after that. This would mean that Arahants can still have dukkhavedaniyaṁ & sukhavedaniyaṁ at the mind door, just not sorrow etc in relation to it.

[Assaji]

It says they do not experience sorrow, lamentation etc. Are these the only mind-based vedanā available?

Again, these are emotions, not vedanā. Mind-based vedanā are sensations, mostly in the centre of the chest:

Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo said in his talk “Dhamma Arises at the Heart”: “Ajahn Maha Bua said real dhamma occurs at the centre of the chest. Take a look: happiness comes from the centre of the chest. That is, mental happiness. Physical happiness happens across the body. Suffering of mind happens at the centre of the chest. All goodness and badness, greed, anger and delusion, arise from there.”

Do not wordlings and Arahants experience the normal 3 types of vedanā, which always arise dependent on any type of contact?

the mind element, and mental phenomena that are agreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, a pleasant feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are disagreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as painful, a painful feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are a basis for equanimity, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling arises.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.129/en/bodhi

These don't "always arise dependent on any type of contact". As you can read in this quote, a pleasant vedanā arises in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, etc. An Arahant masters his mind to such extent that he doesn't make mental contact which would lead to painful mind-based vedanā.

[Ceisiwr]

It says they do not experience sorrow, lamentation etc. Are these the only mind-based vedanā available?

Again, these are emotions, not vedanā. Mind-based vedanā are sensations, mostly in the centre of the chest:

Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo said in his talk “Dhamma Arises at the Heart”: “Ajahn Maha Bua said real dhamma occurs at the centre of the chest. Take a look: happiness comes from the centre of the chest. That is, mental happiness. Physical happiness happens across the body. Suffering of mind happens at the centre of the chest. All goodness and badness, greed, anger and delusion, arise from there.”

Do not wordlings and Arahants experience the normal 3 types of vedanā, which always arise dependent on any type of contact?

the mind element, and mental phenomena that are agreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, a pleasant feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are disagreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as painful, a painful feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are a basis for equanimity, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling arises.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.129/en/bodhi

These don't "always arise dependent on any type of contact". As you can read in this quote, a pleasant vedanā arises in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, etc. An Arahant masters his mind to such extent that he doesn't make mental contact which would lead to painful mind-based vedanā.

The Buddha says the same thing for the other sense contacts in that sutta, so you explanation does not work. We also don't get to choose what contacts are pleasant or not. The Buddha wasn't an Idealist! After awakening the Buddha was still assaulted by painful & pleasant vedanā. It's not something chosen. If you come into contact with something that is painful you will experience pain. If you have 6 sense organs you will experience different vedanā at the sense doors. From an Abhidhamma point of view, some of that vedanā will be past kamma.

[Ceisiwr]

“Saṁvijjati kho, gahapati, cakkhudhātu, rūpā ca manāpā, cakkhuviññāṇañca sukhavedaniyaṁ.
Phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati sukhā vedanā.
Saṁvijjati kho, gahapati, cakkhudhātu, rūpā ca amanāpā, cakkhuviññāṇañca dukkhavedaniyaṁ.
Phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati dukkhā vedanā.
Saṁvijjati kho, gahapati, cakkhudhātu, rūpā ca manāpā upekkhāvedaniyā, cakkhuviññāṇañca adukkhamasukhavedaniyaṁ.
Phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati adukkhamasukhā vedanā …pe…

“Householder, the eye element is found, as are agreeable sights, and eye consciousness.
Pleasant feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as pleasant.
The eye element is found, as are disagreeable sights, and eye consciousness.
Painful feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as painful.
The eye element is found, as are sights that are a basis for equanimity, and eye consciousness.
Neutral feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as neutral.



saṁvijjati kho, gahapati, manodhātu, dhammā ca manāpā, manoviññāṇañca sukhavedaniyaṁ.
Phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati sukhā vedanā.
Saṁvijjati kho, gahapati, manodhātu, dhammā ca amanāpā, manoviññāṇañca dukkhavedaniyaṁ.
Phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati dukkhā vedanā.
Saṁvijjati kho, gahapati, manodhātu, dhammā ca upekkhāvedaniyā, manoviññāṇañca adukkhamasukhavedaniyaṁ.
Phassaṁ paṭicca uppajjati adukkhamasukhā vedanā.

mind element is found, as are agreeable thoughts, and mind consciousness.
Pleasant feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as pleasant.
The mind element is found, as are disagreeable thoughts, and mind consciousness.
Painful feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as painful.
The mind element is found, as are thoughts that are a basis for equanimity, and mind consciousness.
Neutral feeling arises dependent on a contact to be experienced as neutral.

Exact same wording, so either you have to now claim that we choose to experience painful and pleasant contacts at the eye, body, tongue etc or you can accept that we experience painful and pleasant contacts at the mind base just like we do at the other senses, which are not sorrow etc.

[asahi]

Should one says , vedana (pleasant unpleasant neutral) arises at 5 sense doors being the objects of the mind , for ignorant person the 5 vedana becomes an attachment ie sorrow . For arahant , the 5 vedana does not give rise to attachment ie sorrow . An arahant would not give rise to attachment at the mind base . If arahant do recollect some dark painful past experiences such as commited killing or death of a relative , the arahant would take it as an mind object where the perception or memory (eg of relative death) arises persisted ceases without give rise to clinging .

[Assaji]

It says they do not experience sorrow, lamentation etc. Are these the only mind-based vedanā available?

Again, these are emotions, not vedanā. Mind-based vedanā are sensations, mostly in the centre of the chest:

Venerable Luangpor Pramote Pamojjo said in his talk “Dhamma Arises at the Heart”: “Ajahn Maha Bua said real dhamma occurs at the centre of the chest. Take a look: happiness comes from the centre of the chest. That is, mental happiness. Physical happiness happens across the body. Suffering of mind happens at the centre of the chest. All goodness and badness, greed, anger and delusion, arise from there.”

Do not wordlings and Arahants experience the normal 3 types of vedanā, which always arise dependent on any type of contact?

the mind element, and mental phenomena that are agreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, a pleasant feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are disagreeable, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as painful, a painful feeling arises. There exists the mind element, and mental phenomena that are a basis for equanimity, and mind-consciousness: in dependence on a contact to be experienced as neither-painful-nor-pleasant, a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling arises.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.129/en/bodhi

These don't "always arise dependent on any type of contact". As you can read in this quote, a pleasant vedanā arises in dependence on a contact to be experienced as pleasant, etc. An Arahant masters his mind to such extent that he doesn't make mental contact which would lead to painful mind-based vedanā.

The Buddha says the same thing for the other sense contacts in that sutta, so you explanation does not work.

If you provided a quote, I would have a better chance understanding what you are talking about.

We also don't get to choose what contacts are pleasant or not.

Of course. Seems like you misunderstood what I was saying.

[Ceisiwr]

If you provided a quote, I would have a better chance understanding what you are talking about.

Please see here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40268

[Assaji]

Exact same wording, so either you have to now claim that we choose to experience painful and pleasant contacts at the eye, body, tongue etc or you can accept that we experience painful and pleasant contacts at the mind base just like we do at the other senses, which are not sorrow etc.

Of course, we experience various contacts. Please re-read what I have written:

An Arahant masters his mind to such extent that he doesn't make mental contact which would lead to painful mind-based vedanā.

In a situation of physical pain, an untrained person may, for example, blindly advert with his imagination (mano) to the memories of all similar painful experiences, and thus make mental contact with all these memories.
An Arahant won't do such a thing.

[Assaji]

If you provided a quote, I would have a better chance understanding what you are talking about.

Please see here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40268

This is not a quote.

Well, if we don't have common criteria of validity, since you reject Pāli Commentaries out of hand, there's no point to continue the discussion.

[Ceisiwr]

Exact same wording, so either you have to now claim that we choose to experience painful and pleasant contacts at the eye, body, tongue etc or you can accept that we experience painful and pleasant contacts at the mind base just like we do at the other senses, which are not sorrow etc.

Of course, we experience various contacts. Please re-read what I have written:

An Arahant masters his mind to such extent that he doesn't make mental contact which would lead to painful mind-based vedanā.

In a situation of physical pain, an untrained person may, for example, blindly advert with his imagination (mano) to the memories of all similar painful experiences, and thus make mental contact with all these memories.
An Arahant won't do such a thing.

See my link to another topic. I think the Arahant still experiences purely mental painful contact that isn’t sorrow etc but just painful. In other words dukkhavedaniyaṁ can occur at mental contact still for the Arahant.

[Ceisiwr]

If you provided a quote, I would have a better chance understanding what you are talking about.

Please see here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40268

This is not a quote.

Well, if we don't have common criteria of validity, since you reject Pāli Commentaries out of hand, there's no point to continue the discussion.

I don’t reject them out of hand and no, it’s not a quote. It’s referring you to a more detailed reply.

[Assaji]

Should one says , vedana (pleasant unpleasant neutral) arises at 5 sense doors being the objects of the mind , for ignorant person the 5 vedana becomes an attachment ie sorrow . For arahant , the 5 vedana does not give rise to attachment ie sorrow . An arahant would not give rise to attachment at the mind base . If arahant do recollect some dark painful past experiences such as commited killing or death of a relative , the arahant would take it as an mind object where the perception or memory (eg of relative death) arises persisted ceases without give rise to clinging .

Indeed, Asahi.

[Ceisiwr]

If you provided a quote, I would have a better chance understanding what you are talking about.

Please see here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=40268

This is not a quote.

Well, if we don't have common criteria of validity, since you reject Pāli Commentaries out of hand, there's no point to continue the discussion.

Do you think dukkhavedaniyaṁ is physical or mental, or both?