Pali word for future

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mjaviem
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Pali word for future

Post by mjaviem »

Dear pali gurus:

I come to you to ask what is the pali word for "future". More than curious I am concerned about the meaning of that pali word.

I hold the idea that there is no future as in there is something that is going to happen, I understand the future as only a possibility now in the present. But I read translations of Suttas where the Buddha talks about the future:
AN 3:78 Thanissaro wrote:... there is the production of renewed becoming in the future...
SN 22.79 Bodhi wrote:... If I were to seek delight in future form, then in the future too I shall be devoured by form in the very same way that I am now being devoured by present form....
I wonder if these are accurate translations and mean a future or if they mean only a possibility.

Thanks. :anjali:
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pali word for future

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If I were to look forward to enjoying form in the future, I’d be itched by form in the future just as I am today.’
Ahañceva kho pana anāgataṁ rūpaṁ abhinandeyyaṁ, anāgatampāhaṁ addhānaṁ evameva rūpena khajjeyyaṁ, seyyathāpi etarahi paccuppannena rūpena khajjāmī’ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato

Anāgata (adj.) [an + āgata] not come yet, i. e. future. On usual combn. with atīta: see this. D iii.100 sq., 134 sq., 220, 275; M iii.188 sq.; S i.5; ii.283; A iii.100 sq., 400; Sn 318, 373, 851; It 53; J iv.159; vi.364; Dhs 1039, 1416. - PTS
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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mjaviem
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Re: Pali word for future

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 4:29 pm
If I were to look forward to enjoying form in the future, I’d be itched by form in the future just as I am today.’
Ahañceva kho pana anāgataṁ rūpaṁ abhinandeyyaṁ, anāgatampāhaṁ addhānaṁ evameva rūpena khajjeyyaṁ, seyyathāpi etarahi paccuppannena rūpena khajjāmī’ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.79/en/sujato

Anāgata (adj.) [an + āgata] not come yet, i. e. future. On usual combn. with atīta: see this. D iii.100 sq., 134 sq., 220, 275; M iii.188 sq.; S i.5; ii.283; A iii.100 sq., 400; Sn 318, 373, 851; It 53; J iv.159; vi.364; Dhs 1039, 1416. - PTS
Thank you Ceisiwr.

So it seems anāgata can in fact be interpreted as "possible" as well as "future". Or at least this can be the interpretation of unven. mjaviem about "not come".
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Sam Vara
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Re: Pali word for future

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Anāgata often features in the compound atītānāgatapaccupanna, which means "past, future, and present" when talking about khandhas. I guess it depends on how you see "the future". For me, there seems to be a distinction between "the future" and "the possible" in that not everything that is possible is in the future, at least as far as experience is concerned.

The usual term for possible in the sense of "conceivable" is labbhā
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Pali word for future

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Sam Vara wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:47 pm Anāgata often features in the compound atītānāgatapaccupanna, which means "past, future, and present" when talking about khandhas. I guess it depends on how you see "the future". For me, there seems to be a distinction between "the future" and "the possible" in that not everything that is possible is in the future, at least as far as experience is concerned.

The usual term for possible in the sense of "conceivable" is labbhā
I think we know the Sarvāstivādin answer :jumping: Interestingly I read today that the Pudgalavādins accepted it too, whilst others only accepted the past and present existing. I’m actually unsure what the Theravadin position is. Presentism I suppose.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Pali word for future

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Ceisiwr wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 10:12 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:47 pm Anāgata often features in the compound atītānāgatapaccupanna, which means "past, future, and present" when talking about khandhas. I guess it depends on how you see "the future". For me, there seems to be a distinction between "the future" and "the possible" in that not everything that is possible is in the future, at least as far as experience is concerned.

The usual term for possible in the sense of "conceivable" is labbhā
I think we know the Sarvāstivādin answer :jumping: Interestingly I read today that the Pudgalavādins accepted it too, whilst others accepted the past and present existing only.
Yes, quite. Even if we agree that the future does not exist, there is still a difference between a future thing and a possible thing.
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Re: Pali word for future

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Sam Vara wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:47 pm Anāgata often features in the compound [i]atītānāgatapaccupanna[/i], which means "past, future, and present" when talking about khandhas. I guess it depends on how you see "the future". For me, there seems to be a distinction between "the future" and "the possible" in that not everything that is possible is in the future, at least as far as experience is concerned.

The usual term for possible in the sense of "conceivable" is labbhā
Thanks.
In Sinhalese we say "Atita, Anagata, and Wartmana) for "past, future, and present"
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Pali word for future

Post by pulga »

SarathW wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 10:38 pm In Sinhalese we say "Atita, Anagata, and Wartmana) for "past, future, and present"
The Pāli word for wartmana is vattamāna.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: Pali word for future

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In this way of understanding I can rephrase the previous quotes like this:
... there is the production of the possibility of renewed becoming...
... If I were to seek delight in the possibility of form, then within this possibility too I shall be devoured by form in the very same way that I am now being devoured by present form....
Just a way I'm forcing to understand there is only the present...
Sam Vara wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:47 pm Anāgata often features in the compound atītānāgatapaccupanna, which means "past, future, and present" when talking about khandhas. I guess it depends on how you see "the future". For me, there seems to be a distinction between "the future" and "the possible" in that not everything that is possible is in the future, at least as far as experience is concerned.

The usual term for possible in the sense of "conceivable" is labbhā
Thank you Sam Vara. Could you or anyone point me to a Sutta using labbhā? (This one I asked recently in another topic).
Sam Vara wrote: Sat May 22, 2021 9:47 pm ... there seems to be a distinction between "the future" and "the possible" in that not everything that is possible is in the future, at least as far as experience is concerned...
I think you are talking about possibility with higher chances than others here.
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Re: Pali word for future

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mjaviem wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 2:44 am
Thank you Sam Vara. Could you or anyone point me to a Sutta using labbhā? (This one I asked recently in another topic).
The one that springs to mind is this:
But because form is not-self, it leads to affliction. And you can’t compel form:
Yasmā ca kho, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ anattā, tasmā rūpaṁ ābādhāya saṁvattati, na ca labbhati rūpe:
‘May my form be like this! May it not be like that!’
‘evaṁ me rūpaṁ hotu, evaṁ me rūpaṁ mā ahosī’ti.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.59/en/sujato

It occurred to me that possibility and impossibility is also indicated by the phrase etam thānam vijjati - "this is found".

as in
“Mendicants, it’s simply impossible for a disrespectful and irreverent mendicant with incompatible lifestyle to fulfill the practice dealing with supplementary regulations regarding their spiritual companions.
“So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu agāravo appatisso asabhāgavuttiko ‘sabrahmacārīsu ābhisamācārikaṁ dhammaṁ paripūressatī’ti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati...........But it is possible for a respectful and reverent mendicant with compatible lifestyle to fulfill the practice dealing with supplementary regulations regarding their spiritual companions.
So vata, bhikkhave, bhikkhu sagāravo sappatisso sabhāgavuttiko ‘sabrahmacārīsu ābhisamācārikaṁ dhammaṁ paripūressatī’ti ṭhānametaṁ vijjati.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.21/en/sujato
I think you are talking about possibility with higher chances than others here.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.
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Re: Pali word for future

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:13 am ...
The one that springs to mind is this:
...
It occurred to me that possibility and impossibility is also indicated by the phrase etam thānam vijjati - "this is found".
...
I think you are talking about possibility with higher chances than others here.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.
You talked about you make a distinction between future and possibility. I wondered if you distinguish them by the high chance of happening for one thing you think it's going to happen in the future while a possibility is something with low chances to happen in the future.

Thank you for the reference and thank you for the pali words "this is found" "this is not found", it's useful to see how translations adapt according to the understanding of the translator.
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Re: Pali word for future

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mjaviem wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 8:57 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 7:13 am ...
The one that springs to mind is this:
...
It occurred to me that possibility and impossibility is also indicated by the phrase etam thānam vijjati - "this is found".
...
I think you are talking about possibility with higher chances than others here.
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by this.
You talked about you make a distinction between future and possibility. I wondered if you distinguish them by the high chance of happening for one thing you think it's going to happen in the future while a possibility is something with low chances to happen in the future.
No, I tend to see "possibility" as completely subsuming what can happen in the future. Possibility is anything that can happen; which can of course be restricted by any number of conditions ("Possible in UK law"; "possible outcomes for this experiment"; 'possible candidates for the presidency", etc.) but which is ultimately only bounded by logical impossibility. The future is what is going to happen, so it cannot consist of anything which is impossible. But conversely, there are many possible things that are not future states.
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Re: Pali word for future

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Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:11 pm No, I tend to see "possibility" as completely subsuming what can happen in the future. Possibility is anything that can happen; which can of course be restricted by any number of conditions ("Possible in UK law"; "possible outcomes for this experiment"; 'possible candidates for the presidency", etc.) but which is ultimately only bounded by logical impossibility. The future is what is going to happen, so it cannot consist of anything which is impossible. But conversely, there are many possible things that are not future states.
I see. Ok, there is a trajectory. When one is going somewhere there is a trajectory. "The future is what is going to happen" means to me there is a trajectory.

I find comfort thinking there might be no future, only present possibilities (and a trajectory), and no past, only memories in the present. I guess seeing phrases in other languages helps to know how speakers think about specific concepts and that was what I was looking for. Thank you.
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Re: Pali word for future

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mjaviem wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 10:13 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sun May 23, 2021 9:11 pm No, I tend to see "possibility" as completely subsuming what can happen in the future. Possibility is anything that can happen; which can of course be restricted by any number of conditions ("Possible in UK law"; "possible outcomes for this experiment"; 'possible candidates for the presidency", etc.) but which is ultimately only bounded by logical impossibility. The future is what is going to happen, so it cannot consist of anything which is impossible. But conversely, there are many possible things that are not future states.
I see. Ok, there is a trajectory. When one is going somewhere there is a trajectory. "The future is what is going to happen" means to me there is a trajectory.

I find comfort thinking there might be no future, only present possibilities (and a trajectory), and no past, only memories in the present. I guess seeing phrases in other languages helps to know how speakers think about specific concepts and that was what I was looking for. Thank you.
Yes, I understand. I tend to think of the future as being determined by what has happened in the past and what is happening now; I find that comforting because it seems less random, as if I have some control over things and am not completely at the mercy of circumstance. I think it's just a difference of nuance. I hope whatever way you think of things brings you happiness and freedom. :heart: :anjali:
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