Kamachanda & byapada

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asahi
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Kamachanda & byapada

Post by asahi »

Hi Pali teachers ,

Kamachanda - refers to sensual desire (specifically sex ?) or desire for 5 sense objects ?

Byapada - better translated as illwill (angers) or translated as hatred (in wider sense) ?

I notice that in five hindrances sensual desire and illwill are listed in front of the five . Whereas , in five lower fetters both are listed in last two sequence . Any special significant for both in such an order ?
Were both meant differently per hindrance and fetter context ?


:thanks:
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asahi
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by asahi »

:coffee:
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SarathW
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by SarathW »

kāma may denote: 1. subjective sensuality, 'sense-desire'; 2. objective sensuality, the five sense-objects.

1. Subjective sensuality, or sense-desire, is directed to all five sense-objects, and is synonymous with kāma-cchanda, 'sensuous desire', one of the 5 hindrances (nīvaraṇa, q.v.); kāma-rāga, sensuous lust', one of the ten fetters (saṃyojana, q.v.); kāma-taṇhā, 'sensuous craving', one of the 3 cravings (taṇhā, q.v.); kāma-vitakka, 'sensuous thought', one of the 3 wrong thoughts (micchā-saṅkappa; s. vitakka). - Sense-desire is also one of the cankers (āsava, q.v.) and clingings (upādāna, q.v.).

2. Objective sensuality is, in the canonical texts, mostly called kāma-guṇa, 'cords (or strands) of sensuality'.

"There are 5 cords of sensuality: the visible objects, cognizable by eye-consciousness, that are desirable, cherished, pleasant, lovely, sensuous and alluring; the sounds ... smells ... tastes ... bodily impressions cognizable by body-consciousness, that are desirable .... " (D. 33; M. 13, 26, 59, 66).

These two kinds of kāma are called 1. kilesa-kāma, i.e. kāma as a mental defilement, 2. vatthu-kāma, i.e. kāma as the object-base of sensuality; first in MNid.. I, p. 1, and frequently in the commentaries.

Sense-desire is finally eliminated at the stage of the Non-Returner (Anāgāmī; s. ariya-puggala, saṃyojana).

The peril and misery of sense-desire is often described in the texts, e.g. in stirring similes at M. 22, 54, and in the 'gradual instruction' (s. ānupubbī-kathā). See further M. 13, 45, 75; Sn. v. 766ff.; Dhp. 186, 215.

The texts often stress the fact that what fetters man to the world of the senses are not the sense-organs nor the sense-objects but lustful desire (chandarāga). On this see A. VI, 63; S. XXXV, 122, 191. - (App.).
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_k.htm
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:28 am
kāma may denote: 1. subjective sensuality, 'sense-desire'; 2. objective sensuality, the five sense-objects.

1. Subjective sensuality, or sense-desire, is directed to all five sense-objects, and is synonymous with kāma-cchanda, 'sensuous desire', one of the 5 hindrances (nīvaraṇa, q.v.); kāma-rāga, sensuous lust', one of the ten fetters (saṃyojana, q.v.); kāma-taṇhā, 'sensuous craving', one of the 3 cravings (taṇhā, q.v.); kāma-vitakka, 'sensuous thought', one of the 3 wrong thoughts (micchā-saṅkappa; s. vitakka). - Sense-desire is also one of the cankers (āsava, q.v.) and clingings (upādāna, q.v.).

2. Objective sensuality is, in the canonical texts, mostly called kāma-guṇa, 'cords (or strands) of sensuality'.

"There are 5 cords of sensuality: the visible objects, cognizable by eye-consciousness, that are desirable, cherished, pleasant, lovely, sensuous and alluring; the sounds ... smells ... tastes ... bodily impressions cognizable by body-consciousness, that are desirable .... " (D. 33; M. 13, 26, 59, 66).

These two kinds of kāma are called 1. kilesa-kāma, i.e. kāma as a mental defilement, 2. vatthu-kāma, i.e. kāma as the object-base of sensuality; first in MNid.. I, p. 1, and frequently in the commentaries.

Sense-desire is finally eliminated at the stage of the Non-Returner (Anāgāmī; s. ariya-puggala, saṃyojana).

The peril and misery of sense-desire is often described in the texts, e.g. in stirring similes at M. 22, 54, and in the 'gradual instruction' (s. ānupubbī-kathā). See further M. 13, 45, 75; Sn. v. 766ff.; Dhp. 186, 215.

The texts often stress the fact that what fetters man to the world of the senses are not the sense-organs nor the sense-objects but lustful desire (chandarāga). On this see A. VI, 63; S. XXXV, 122, 191. - (App.).
https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_k.htm
How to differentiate these terms ?

1. sense-desire / sensuous (kama) desire (cchanda)
2. sensuous lust (k.raga)
3. sensuous craving (k.taṇhā)
4. sensuous thought (k.vitakka)


Are these all synonym ? I think first three relate to emotion ? Thought is rationale but being tainted by desire so is sensuous .
Firstly we think of object of sensuality then give rise to passion or urge which is sense of desire .
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SarathW
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by SarathW »

How to differentiate these terms ?
Good question.
I can't give you a definite answer on these even though I have some idea what they are.
I will let someone else answer this.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by asahi »

This Pali thing is alien to me .

:D
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SarathW
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:51 am This Pali thing is alien to me .

:D
It is not the Pali.
It is the in-depth analysis of Dhamma by Buddha.
He is looking to the mind in minute details you will understand them only if you have Jhana I suppose.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:54 am
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:51 am This Pali thing is alien to me .

:D
It is not the Pali.
It is the in-depth analysis of Dhamma by Buddha.
He is looking to the mind in minute details you will understand them only if you have Jhana I suppose.
Really , but i thought the Pali to english translation appears different depending on whom translate and those without Pali background are stuck especially this is 4th language for me .
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SarathW
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:21 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:54 am
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:51 am This Pali thing is alien to me .

:D
It is not the Pali.
It is the in-depth analysis of Dhamma by Buddha.
He is looking to the mind in minute details you will understand them only if you have Jhana I suppose.
Really , but i thought the Pali to english translation appears different depending on whom translate and those without Pali background are stuck especially this is 4th language for me .
What really matters is not the translation or the meaning but understanding the in-depth teaching.
For instance, the word Nibbana was there even before Buddha's enlightenment but what Buddha called Nibbana is not the same.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
asahi
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Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2020 4:23 pm

Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:11 pm For instance, the word Nibbana was there even before Buddha's enlightenment but what Buddha called Nibbana is not the same.
It seems Nibbana was applied in buddhism . Could you explain what does it means before the Buddha ?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by Ceisiwr »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 11:40 pm
SarathW wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 10:11 pm For instance, the word Nibbana was there even before Buddha's enlightenment but what Buddha called Nibbana is not the same.
It seems Nibbana was applied in buddhism . Could you explain what does it means before the Buddha ?
We see Nibbana being used by outside ascetics in DN1. There is also another sutta where a hedonist claims that fulfilling sense desires is Nibbana. It seems Nibbana was tied with notions of supreme health, peace and tranquility before the Buddha. What the Buddha did was awaken to that 1 unconditioned ultimate reality. Upon coming to that dhamma all ignorance, craving and suffering ceases thus meaning it is the true Nibbana.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
asahi
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Re: Kamachanda & byapada

Post by asahi »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:43 am We see Nibbana being used by outside ascetics in DN1. There is also another sutta where a hedonist claims that fulfilling sense desires is Nibbana. It seems Nibbana was tied with notions of supreme health, peace and tranquility before the Buddha. What the Buddha did was awaken to that 1 unconditioned ultimate reality. Upon coming to that dhamma all ignorance, craving and suffering ceases thus meaning it is the true Nibbana.
:thumbsup:

Buddha gave many old terms a new meaning .
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