The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

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DooDoot
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The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dear Pali gurus

The Pali term 'parinibbāyī'' is found as follows:
With the ending of the five lower fetters, he’s been spontaneously arisen and will become extinguished there, not liable to return from that world.”

Pukkusāti, bhikkhave, kulaputto pañcannaṁ orambhāgiyānaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā opapātiko tattha parinibbāyī anāvattidhammo tasmā lokā”ti.
However, the dictionaries say:
parinibbāyī
adjective
one who has attained the final release

https://suttacentral.net/define/parinibb%C4%81y%C4%AB
Source: BuddhaSasana: Concise Pali-English Dictionary
parinibbāyi : (aor. of parinibbāti) died without being reborn. || parinibbāyī (adj.) one who has attained the final release.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/parinibbayi
aorist - a verb tense in some languages (classical Greek and Sanskrit) expressing action (especially past action) without indicating its completion or continuation

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/Aorist+tense
Why is parinibbāti translated as "will become" rather than "has become"?

Thank you
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ssasny
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by ssasny »

It seems to me that it is from 'parinibbāyin', nominative, not an aorist here.
"one who attains Parinibbāna"
So after venerable Pukkusāti's spontaneous arising, that's what will happen.

'opapātiko' and 'parinibbāyī' happen after the 5 lower fetter's destruction.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 3:53 pmIt seems to me that it is from 'parinibbāyin', nominative, not an aorist here.
"one who attains Parinibbāna"
IMO it is a normal aorist. A simple google search leading to Wikipedia would reveal: "The aorist usually implies a past event in the indicative, but it does not assert pastness, and can be used of present or future events."

ἀpolómin ἄr᾽, eἴ me daí lípsis, yínai.
I am undone if you will leave me, wife.
(Eurīpídēs, Álkēstis 386)

This shows the usage of the aorist in the future. The speaker's being undone will happen in the theoretical future.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
ssasny
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by ssasny »

The aorist form of the verb parinibbāyati / -nibbāti, 3rd per. sing. would most likely be 'parinibbāyi' (with the short i).
This is what's given in the Concise Dictionary entry quoted above.

'parinibbāyī' (with the long i) is the masc. nom. sing. form of the word parinibbāyin.
It describes Pukkusāti kulaputto.

One can see this by referring to a declension table of the Pāli -in stem nouns/adjectives.

Stephen
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:48 pmThe aorist form of the verb parinibbāyati, 3rd per. sing. would most likely be 'parinibbāyi' (with the short i).
This is what's given in the Concise Dictionary entry quoted above.

'parinibbāyī' (with the long i) is the masc. nom. sing. form of the word parinibbāyin.
It describes Pukkusāti kulaputto.
I understand that the "dictionary forms," the regularized forms, of the language can be found in various declension tables across the internet. I also understand that some of these feature common irregularities in the language and that other present a "prescriptivist" image of the language. What is the actual consequence of your dissent from the reading given in the OP translation? How will it change the sentence that DooDoot quoted? Do you also disagree with "he’s been spontaneously arisen?" I assume that you must, but am quite happy to be wrong.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
ssasny
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by ssasny »

I have no dissent at all.
The translation given in the original post, "and will become extinguished there,", or
"will attain final Nibbāna there" (Nanamoli/Bodhi trans.) is exactly how I believe "tattha parinibbāyī"
is to be translated.

I understood the original post to ask for a grammatical clarification, not a debate on the translation.
I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression.

Stephen
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:00 pmI understood the original post to ask for a grammatical clarification, not a debate on the translation.
I'm sorry if I've given the wrong impression.
I understood you to be dissenting from the translation given in the OP. My apologies if this was mistaken.

In the interest of further conversation, why do you think, other than the irregular spelling, that it is specifically not an aorist and perhaps cannot be one regardless of if it is spelled irregularly? As Sphairos alluded to, I do not have a formal education in any Indian language at all. I am a tourist in Indian linguistics, and opinions I have should be evaluated knowing that. In what ways do the Pāli and Ancient Greek aorists differ, for instance? My example is based on Ancient Greek. Sphairos, if he wishes to lower himself to my level, can answer should he choose obviously. The forum is enriched by accurate conversation about Pāli and the correction of error.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
ssasny
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by ssasny »

If I understand the ending of MN 140 correctly, a progression of events is stated by the Buddha regarding Ven. Pukkusāti, recently killed by a cow.

1. he was wise and practiced in accordance with the Dhamma
2. the (his) five lower fetters were destroyed
3. he spontaneously reappeared in the Pure Abodes (as a non-returner)
4. he will attain parinibbāna there, without ever returning. [tattha parinibbāyī - there (he is) one who attains Parinibbāna]

So in the context of the sutta's narrative, #4 hasn't occurred yet, it's an event in the future.

Stephen
Last edited by ssasny on Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Coëmgenu
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by Coëmgenu »

ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:28 pm in the context of the sutta's narrative, #4 hasn't occurred yet, it's an event in the future.
Nor was Admetos undone yet, because Alkestis hadn't yet left him, in the Greek example. I suppose my misunderstanding must be a consequence of trying to apply one language to the other and just not knowing enough Pāli and Sanskrit.
The spotless mind,
the most highly pure, the tranquil,
all unspoiled phenomena supporting,
this name applying to the consciousness of the Tathāgata.

A bodhisattva, one of two vehicles, an ordinary person:
these are thrones which hold seeds subject to germination.
In acquiring the virtuous pure mind of a Buddha,
which is resolute suchness, the sūtra says:

The Tathāgata's spotless mind
is a pure place without outflows.
It is liberation from all bondage.
It is like a spherical mirror.
It is consciousness always in internal agreement.

(T1585.13a19 Vijñaptimātratāsiddhiśāstra)
Richard W
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by Richard W »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:34 pm
ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:28 pm in the context of the sutta's narrative, #4 hasn't occurred yet, it's an event in the future.
Nor was Admetos undone yet, because Alkestis hadn't yet left him, in the Greek example. I suppose my misunderstanding must be a consequence of trying to apply one language to the other and just not knowing enough Pāli and Sanskrit.
The terms imperfect, aorist and perfect in Pali and Sanskrit is very much a comparison of their modes of formation compared to Greek. The subtle differences are perceived, seemingly unreliably, purely in terms of time by the non-Western grammarians. There seem to be no differences of aspect left in them by the time we get to Pali. At least, that is the teaching of the Western grammarians of Pali.
ssasny
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by ssasny »

Perhaps it's worth remarking that in the sentence,

Pukkusāti, bhikkhave, kulaputto pañcannaṁ orambhāgiyānaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā opapātiko tattha parinibbāyī anāvattidhammo tasmā lokā”ti.

'parinibbāyī' is not a verb, syntactically it is an adjective, along with opapātiko and anāvattidhammo.
The three are declined in the masculine, nominative, singular to match Pukkusāti kulaputto, which they describe.

opapātiko is "arisen or reborn without visible cause", parinibbāyī is "one who attains Parinibbāna" [tattha there]
"anāvattidhammo" is "not of the nature to return".

So the attributes given to Pukkusāti kulaputto in this sentence are "spontaneously arisen" [in the Pure Abodes], ""one who attains Parinibbāna" (at some point there),
and "not of the nature to return" [tasmā lokā - “not liable to return from that world"].
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DooDoot
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by DooDoot »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:01 pmThis shows the usage of the aorist in the future. The speaker's being undone will happen in the theoretical future...
Coëmgenu. Very illuminating for me. Thank you
ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 4:48 pm The aorist form of the verb parinibbāyati / -nibbāti, 3rd per. sing. would most likely be 'parinibbāyi' (with the short i).
This is what's given in the Concise Dictionary entry quoted above. 'parinibbāyī' (with the long i) is the masc. nom. sing. form of the word parinibbāyin. It describes Pukkusāti kulaputto.
Very interesting & compelling. Thanks
Richard W wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:16 pm The terms imperfect, aorist and perfect in Pali and Sanskrit is very much a comparison of their modes of formation compared to Greek. The subtle differences are perceived, seemingly unreliably, purely in terms of time by the non-Western grammarians. There seem to be no differences of aspect left in them by the time we get to Pali. At least, that is the teaching of the Western grammarians of Pali.
Thank you Richard (however beyond my limitations).
ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 7:47 pm 'parinibbāyī' is not a verb, syntactically it is an adjective, along with opapātiko and anāvattidhammo.
The three are declined in the masculine, nominative, singular to match Pukkusāti kulaputto, which they describe.
Thank you Stephen. The above sounds convincing.

Thank you all. :bow: :bow: :bow:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by DooDoot »

ssasny wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 5:28 pm attains Parinibbāna
Instead of starting a new topic, I thought to express an uncommon view here for discussion and any explicit literal refutation, particularly from sutta, as follows:

* the term 'Parinibbāna' is most commonly interpreted per DN 16, namely, in respect to disappearance of the Buddha.

* However, the term 'parinibbāyati' is used in many suttas to refer to here-&-now nibbana (with residue), such as MN 37, and also used in suttas about metta & jhanas, such as:
“Mendicants, these four people are found in the world.

“Cattārome, bhikkhave, puggalā santo saṁvijjamānā lokasmiṁ.

What four?

Katame cattāro?

Firstly, a person meditates spreading a heart full of love to one direction, and to the second, and to the third, and to the fourth. In the same way above, below, across, everywhere, all around, they spread a heart full of love to the whole world—abundant, expansive, limitless, free of enmity and ill will.

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo mettāsahagatena cetasā ekaṁ disaṁ pharitvā viharati, tathā dutiyaṁ tathā tatiyaṁ tathā catutthaṁ. Iti uddhamadho tiriyaṁ sabbadhi sabbattatāya sabbāvantaṁ lokaṁ mettāsahagatena cetasā vipulena mahaggatena appamāṇena averena abyāpajjena pharitvā viharati.

They enjoy this and like it and find it satisfying.

So tadassādeti, taṁ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṁ āpajjati.

If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Host.

Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṁ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṁ devānaṁ sahabyataṁ upapajjati.

The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Host is one eon.

Brahmakāyikānaṁ, bhikkhave, devānaṁ kappo āyuppamāṇaṁ.

An ordinary person stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they go to hell or the animal realm or the ghost realm.

Tattha puthujjano yāvatāyukaṁ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṁ tesaṁ devānaṁ āyuppamāṇaṁ taṁ sabbaṁ khepetvā nirayampi gacchati tiracchānayonimpi gacchati pettivisayampi gacchati.

But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they’re extinguished in that very life.

Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṁ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṁ tesaṁ devānaṁ āyuppamāṇaṁ taṁ sabbaṁ khepetvā tasmiṁyeva bhave parinibbāyati.

This is the difference between an educated noble disciple and an uneducated ordinary person, that is, when there is a place of rebirth.

Ayaṁ kho, bhikkhave, viseso ayaṁ adhippayāso idaṁ nānākaraṇaṁ sutavato ariyasāvakassa assutavatā puthujjanena, yadidaṁ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.125/en/sujato
Firstly, a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unskillful qualities, enters and remains in the first absorption, which has the rapture and bliss born of seclusion, while placing the mind and keeping it connected.

Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco puggalo vivicceva kāmehi vivicca akusalehi dhammehi savitakkaṁ savicāraṁ vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ upasampajja viharati.

They enjoy it and like it and find it satisfying.

So tadassādeti, taṁ nikāmeti, tena ca vittiṁ āpajjati.

If they abide in that, are committed to it, and meditate on it often without losing it, when they die they’re reborn in the company of the gods of Brahmā’s Host.

Tattha ṭhito tadadhimutto tabbahulavihārī aparihīno kālaṁ kurumāno brahmakāyikānaṁ devānaṁ sahabyataṁ upapajjati.

The lifespan of the gods of Brahma’s Host is one eon.

Brahmakāyikānaṁ, bhikkhave, devānaṁ kappo āyuppamāṇaṁ.

An ordinary person stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they go to hell or the animal realm or the ghost realm.

Tattha puthujjano yāvatāyukaṁ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṁ tesaṁ devānaṁ āyuppamāṇaṁ taṁ sabbaṁ khepetvā nirayampi gacchati tiracchānayonimpi gacchati pettivisayampi gacchati.

But a disciple of the Buddha stays there until the lifespan of those gods is spent, then they’re extinguished in that very life.

Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṁ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṁ tesaṁ devānaṁ āyuppamāṇaṁ taṁ sabbaṁ khepetvā tasmiṁyeva bhave parinibbāyati.

This is the difference between an educated noble disciple and an uneducated ordinary person, that is, when there is a place of rebirth.

Ayaṁ kho, bhikkhave, viseso ayaṁ adhippayāso idaṁ nānākaraṇaṁ sutavato ariyasāvakassa assutavatā puthujjanena, yadidaṁ gatiyā upapattiyā sati.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.123/en/sujato
Note: Thanissaro translates "bhave" as "state of being".
The above suttas sound strange to me. I doubt "parinibbāyati" above refers to Final Nibbana. My impression is "parinibbāyati" merely refers to the extinguishing of the metta, jhana factors & the godly state of being. :shrug:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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ssasny
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by ssasny »

Hi, I'm not entirely clear about the idea you are stating, but the verb 'parinibbāyati' means,
"to die without being reborn, to reach complete extinction of existence" (PED).

So in the AN 4.123 you quoted,
Bhagavato pana sāvako tattha yāvatāyukaṁ ṭhatvā yāvatakaṁ tesaṁ devānaṁ āyuppamāṇaṁ taṁ sabbaṁ khepetvā tasmiṁyeva bhave parinibbāyati.

the idea is that the disciple of the Blessed One, "attains final nibbāna in that very same state of existence" (Bodhi trans.)

At the end of that life span, that's it.

Stephen
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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Post by DooDoot »

ssasny wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 2:48 am Hi, I'm not entirely clear about the idea you are stating, but the verb 'parinibbāyati' means,
"to die without being reborn, to reach complete extinction of existence" (PED).
Thank you Stephen. I personally regard the PED as unreliable, as sectarian doctrine (rather than linguistic) and simply what was taught to the PTS by Singhalese whose Buddhism was severely & remains in a state of decay. For example, Arahants do not "die" ("marana") therefore the PED is obviously incorrect above.

I personally apply a 'contextual approach' to language; such as on this page. I will examine the suttas more about 'parinibbāyati'.

I already suggested many suttas (such as MN 37, MN 140, SN 12.51, SN 22.53, etc) use 'parinibbāyati' in a stock phrase about here & now Nibbana, as follows:
Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

Anupādiyaṁ na paritassati, aparitassaṁ paccattaññeva parinibbāyati:
Good to see you here. Thank you for your assistance. :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Sun Jun 06, 2021 6:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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