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Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:59 am
by Dhammanando
DooDoot wrote: Sat Jun 05, 2021 1:39 pm Why is parinibbāti translated as "will become" rather than "has become"?
The adjective parinibbāyī isn't temporally stipulative at all.

Suppose Pukkusāti had been an upahacca-parinibbāyī (as the Majjhima Atthakathā claims) and had already attained arahatta at the time of the Dhātuvibhangasutta. Or suppose he'd been one of the more sluggish kinds of anāgāmī and had not yet attained arahatta. Either way he would still be denoted parinibbāyī.

And so in contrast with the past participle parinibbuto or the future tense finite verb parinibbāyissati, the word parinibbāyī conveys no information as to whether Pukkusāti's arahatta has already happened or has yet to happen. It tells us only that he's someone who has attainment of it as his destiny in that particular life.

A very literal rendering:
Pukkusāti, bhikkhave, kulaputto pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātiko tattha parinibbāyī anāvattidhammo tasmā lokā”ti.

"Pukkusāti, monks, a son of good family, on account of destruction of the five fetters that partake of the near shore, is one of apparitional arising [in the Pure Abodes], one to be in due course fully extinguished, one whose nature is not to return from that world."
Note that I've taken the adverb tattha as being used in its temporal sense rather than its locational or spatial ones: "in due course", "eventually", "sooner or later".

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Sun Jun 06, 2021 12:26 pm
by ssasny
Thank you Bhante. This is very helpful.
Stephen

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:48 am
by DooDoot
Dhammanando wrote: Sun Jun 06, 2021 9:59 am A very literal rendering:
Pukkusāti, bhikkhave, kulaputto pañcannaṃ orambhāgiyānaṃ saṃyojanānaṃ parikkhayā opapātiko tattha parinibbāyī anāvattidhammo tasmā lokā”ti.

"Pukkusāti, monks, a son of good family, on account of destruction of the five fetters that partake of the near shore, is one of apparitional :shock: arising [in the Pure Abodes], one to be in due course fully extinguished, one whose nature is not to return from that world."
Note that I've taken the adverb tattha as being used in its temporal sense rather than its locational or spatial ones: "in due course", "eventually", "sooner or later".
Thank you Venerable. I have become a skeptic because the use of parikkhayā in MN 37 and particularly in AN 4.123 to 125 and particularly the afterwards statement of "one whose nature is not to return from that world" gives me the impression "parikkhayā" refers to the non-returner in relation to the five lower fetters that have become incapable of arising again; just as for an arahant the three defilements are incapable of arising again. In short, i doubt "parikkhayā" always refers to "final Nibbana".

Are you able to save me from this new heresy i am convinced of? :cry: :thanks:

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:54 pm
by Dhammanando
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:48 am Thank you Venerable. I have become a skeptic because the use of parikkhayā in MN 37 and particularly in AN 4.123 to 125 and particularly the afterwards statement of "one whose nature is not to return from that world" gives me the impression "parikkhayā" refers to the non-returner in relation to the five lower fetters that have become incapable of arising again;
Yes.
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:48 am In short, i doubt "parikkhayā" always refers to "final Nibbana".
I've never heard anyone claim that parikkhayā always refers to full extinguishment.

If only the destruction of the first three or first five fetters is stated, then it's surely self-evident that it is only stream-entry or non-returning that is referred to, not full extinguishment.

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:48 am
by DooDoot
Dhammanando wrote: Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:54 pm I've never heard anyone claim that parikkhayā always refers to full extinguishment.

If only the destruction of the first three or first five fetters is stated, then it's surely self-evident that it is only stream-entry or non-returning that is referred to, not full extinguishment.
Thank you Venerable. I never heard the above before. I thought my point of view was original. :| :mrgreen:

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:13 am
by Dhammanando
DooDoot wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 2:48 am Thank you Venerable. I never heard the above before. I thought my point of view was original. :| :mrgreen:
From the verb parikkhīyati (the source of the noun parikkhaya) we also get the past participle parikkhīṇa. This form of the verb is very often used as an epithet of arahants and does mean more or less the same as parinibbuta.
Parikkhīṇa [pp. of parikkhīyati] exhausted, wasted, decayed, extinct Vin iv.258; M iii.80; S i.92; ii.24; v.145, 461; D iii.97, 133 (˚bhava-saŋyojana); It 79 (id.); A iv.418, 434 (āsavā); Sn 175, 639, 640; Dh 93; Pug 11, 14; Miln 23 (˚āyuka); PvA 112 (˚tiṇodak'āhāra).

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:49 pm
by DooDoot
Dhammanando wrote: Tue Jun 08, 2021 3:13 am From the verb parikkhīyati (the source of the noun parikkhaya) we also get the past participle parikkhīṇa. This form of the verb is very often used as an epithet of arahants and does mean more or less the same as parinibbuta.
Parikkhīṇa [pp. of parikkhīyati] exhausted, wasted, decayed, extinct Vin iv.258; M iii.80; S i.92; ii.24; v.145, 461; D iii.97, 133 (˚bhava-saŋyojana); It 79 (id.); A iv.418, 434 (āsavā); Sn 175, 639, 640; Dh 93; Pug 11, 14; Miln 23 (˚āyuka); PvA 112 (˚tiṇodak'āhāra).
So from MN 8, for example, we have:
In the same way, a cruel individual extinguishes it by not being cruel. An individual who kills extinguishes it by not killing. …

Evameva kho, cunda, vihiṁsakassa purisapuggalassa avihiṁsā hoti parinibbānāya, pāṇātipātissa purisapuggalassa pāṇātipātā veramaṇī hoti parinibbānāya.

https://suttacentral.net/mn8/en/sujato
The above appears to not be about any final nibbana.

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:25 pm
by pulga
DooDoot wrote: Wed Jun 09, 2021 8:49 pm
Evameva kho, cunda, vihiṁsakassa purisapuggalassa avihiṁsā hoti parinibbānāya, pāṇātipātissa purisapuggalassa pāṇātipātā veramaṇī hoti parinibbānāya.

https://suttacentral.net/mn8/en/sujato

The above appears to not be about any final nibbana.
I take parinibbānāya to be dative of purpose. "A person given to cruelty has non-cruelty by which to attain complete extinction...."

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:01 pm
by DooDoot
pulga wrote: Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:25 pm I take parinibbānāya to be dative of purpose. "A person given to cruelty has non-cruelty by which to attain complete extinction...."
thanks Pulga. offering more rationale for the above would be more useful. thanks

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:52 pm
by ssasny
I agree with Pulga.

Ven. Bodhi's footnote (#111) to this passage in MN 8 is useful here.

"#111: The Pali term rendered by "extinguished" is parinibbuto, which can also mean "attained to Nibbāna"; and the Pali term rendered by "help extinguish" is parinibbāpessati, which can also mean "help attain Nibbāna" or "bring to Nibbāna."
The Pali original for the expression to follow, "by which to extinguish it," parinibbānāya, might have been rendered "for attaining Nibbāna." Though in all these cases the alternative rendering would be too strong to insist on literally, its implications contribute to the suggestiveness of the original in a way that cannot be captured in translation."

I might add that the nuances of Pali grammar, and the Pali language found the suttas is best explored not by using a search engine, but rather by a careful, systematic study of the language's grammar, followed by a slow reading of the suttas in their entirety.

Stephen

Re: The Pali term 'parinibbāyī' ???

Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2021 1:28 am
by DooDoot
ssasny wrote: Fri Jun 11, 2021 2:52 pm I agree with Pulga.

Ven. Bodhi's footnote (#111) to this passage in MN 8 is useful here.
Thanks Stephen. For me, it is not useful. I suggest the right method is to begin by comparing the parinibbānāya verse with the previous uparibhāgaṅgamanīyā verse and therefore rely in the coherent structure of the suttas rather than on the speculations of scholars.
Cunda, all unskillful qualities lead downwards, while all skillful qualities lead upwards.

Seyyathāpi, cunda, ye keci akusalā dhammā sabbe te adhobhāgaṅgamanīyā, ye keci kusalā dhammā sabbe te uparibhāgaṅgamanīyā;

In the same way, a cruel individual is led upwards by not being cruel.

evameva kho, cunda, vihiṁsakassa purisapuggalassa avihiṁsā hoti uparibhāgāya
Truly, if you’re not tamed, trained, and extinguished you can’t tame, train, and extinguish someone else.

So vata, cunda, attanā adanto avinīto aparinibbuto paraṁ damessati vinessati parinibbāpessatīti netaṁ ṭhānaṁ vijjati.

But if you’re tamed, trained, and extinguished you can tame, train, and extinguish someone else.

So vata, cunda, attanā danto vinīto parinibbuto paraṁ damessati vinessati parinibbāpessatīti ṭhānametaṁ vijjati.

In the same way, a cruel individual extinguishes it by not being cruel.

Evameva kho, cunda, vihiṁsakassa purisapuggalassa avihiṁsā hoti parinibbānāya,
Obviously, the uparibhāgāya (lead upwards) relates to the puggala (individual) above rather than to the defilement of cruelty because it makes no logical sense for a defilement to be led upwards.

Therefore, similar, it appears logical the parinibbānāya verse applies to the puggala (individual) above rather than to the defilement of cruelty.

If this is correct, it again shows how the translators, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, Thanissaro, Sujato, etc, are unreliable; and shows one important reason for this Pali subforum on DW (which is to critically examine Pali rather than be a scholar guru worshipping subforum).

Kind regards :smile: