Translating "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" in dative case ???

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Dhammanando
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Re: Translating "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" in dative case ???

Post by Dhammanando »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:16 am Then I read the two major Satipattana suttas were frauds concocted by abhidhammikas at the 3rd council.
Would you be referring to Bhante Sujāto's theory to this effect? If so, I would note that even he doesn't allege the entire suttas to be fraudulent, but merely that in their proto-form they were much shorter, with dhammānupassanā being limited to just the five hindrances and seven enlightenment factors.
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Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
asahi
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Re: Translating "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" in dative case ???

Post by asahi »

So i guess the problem was due to mistake of pali compiler in regards to the beginning sentence of the sutta ? Not about the contents of the sutta .
Pulsar
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Re: Translating "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" in dative case ???

Post by Pulsar »

V. Dhammanando asked me regarding the word fraudulent I applied to MN 10 and DN 22.
True, I called them fraudulent. 
He further wrote 
Would you be referring to Bhante Sujāto's theory to this effect?
If so, I would note that even he doesn't allege the entire suttas to be fraudulent,
but merely that in their proto-form they were much shorter, with dhammānupassanā being limited to just the five hindrances and seven enlightenment factors.
Bhante Sujato's theory? What is it? I have not read it.
You wrote
"He does not allege the entire sutta is fraudulent?"
I do not allege that either. How can anyone allege that?
Whoever complied the sutta, for instance DN 22, neatly packed in doctrinal material (5 aggregates, Internal and external sensee bases, 4 noble truths, Awakening factors, 4 jhanas) into the sutta that leads the naive reader to believe the entire sutta is uniformly reliable. 
Now I am left with the task of disputing Bhante Sujato's theory? 
This is a serious task. He is a monk I love, anyone would if they listened to the series of talks he presented in the years 2011- 2015.
I have to undertake a task, where i have to be politically correct,
and stick to rules of DW, and that requires careful thinking and construction of an answer.
If I make the slightest error, I would be disqualified from posting on DW even for as few as 5 days, which once happened.
I love Bhante sujato for saying that Pali canon has mythology built into it, and saying that he had to unlearn all
abhidhamma he learnt, in order to progress.

He also once said he carefully selected his teacher. He said, in a monastery that had around 1000 monks, his teacher was the only one who was interested in meditation. 
I respect him for his honesty.
Are you sure Sujato is saying that Dhammanupassana is about 5 hindrances and & 7 awakening factors?
Or is he merely translating what is in DN 22?
That is the role of scholars, to translate what is in the canon.

Regardless of whether Sujato said so or not, I stick to my story,
because Buddha asked the Kalamas to do so.
To justify my take, let us try to diagnose the problem.
Here is how the brilliant and quotable Thanissaro defines dhamma:
Excerpt from the footnotes AN 10.58
According to the Commentary to AN 8.83 (which covers the first eight of the ten questions given here),
"all phenomena" (sabbe dhamma) here means the five aggregates.
These are rooted in desire, it says, because the desire to act (and thus create kamma) is what underlies their existence.
The Commentary's interpretation here seems to be an expansion on MN 109, in which the five clinging-aggregates are said to be rooted in desire, an assertion echoed in SN 42.11, which states that suffering & stress are rooted in desire.
Here, all the aggregates — whether affected by clinging or not — are said to be rooted in desire.The Commentary goes on to say that the statement, "All phenomena are rooted in desire," deals exclusively with worldly phenomena, whereas the remaining statements about all phenomena cover both worldly and transcendent phenomena. There seems less reason to follow the Commentary's first assertion here, in that the noble eightfold path, when brought to maturity, counts as transcendent, and it is obviously rooted in a skillful form of desire.
Here obviously Thanissaro is disputing part of the commentary.
He writes
As for the transcendent in its ultimate form, the phrase "all phenomena" as used in this sutta does not cover Unbinding, as Unbinding is not rooted in anything and, as the final statement indicates, it constitutes the final end of all phenomena.
 
Dearest V. Dhammanando: Dhamma in Satipatthana applies to worldly phenomena.
Awakening factors arise in the
  • transcendent state.
Does it make sense to include those here (4th satipatthana) following the logical progression of the sutta?

Now Asahi here raised a good point 
So i guess the problem was due to mistake of pali compiler in regards to the beginning sentence of the sutta ? Not about the contents of the sutta
this is what i love about these chat groups.

Do you really think the Pali complier of SN 47.42 made an error at the very beginning of the sutta?
You are the expert in Pali. Pl. enlighten us?
With love :candle:
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Dhammanando
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Re: Translating "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" in dative case ???

Post by Dhammanando »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:30 pm Bhante Sujato's theory? What is it? I have not read it.
You wrote
I was referring to his book A History of Mindfulness in which DN 22 is referred to as the "Piltdown Sutta". Nearly everyone I encounter who takes a dim view of this sutta does so under the influence of this book and so I thought this might be the case with you. Since it isn't, the point of my post was rather beside the point.
During vassa this year I shall be offline until the end of October.

Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
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Re: Translating "satipaṭṭhānānaṁ" in dative case ???

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:14 am Nearly everyone I encounter...
Not here. Any MN 118 conviction will dismiss MN 10 & DN 22.
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