atthi natthi

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asahi
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atthi natthi

Post by asahi »

Dear Pali teachers ,

Does atthi and natthi always means ultimately there is existence and non existence ?
Or is it just an positive and negative affirmation in language ?
Eg . There is and there is not ?


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ssasny
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by ssasny »

It is the latter, as was discussed in a previous thread.

'atthi' is a Pāli verb 'to be', na + atthi is the opposite.

"There is and there is not"
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DooDoot
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by DooDoot »

atthi and natthi appear to be generic non-Buddhist words found in the suttas

for example, the terms atthatta and natthatta appear found only in SN 44.10, spoken by Vaccagotta

for example, the terms atthita and natthita appear found only in SN 12.15, which appear to refer to two non-Buddhist doctrines

i would suggest to investigate the Sanskrit equivalents and usage in the Vedas

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SarathW
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by SarathW »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 12:34 am atthi and natthi appear to be generic non-Buddhist words found in the suttas

for example, the terms atthatta and natthatta appear found only in SN 44.10, spoken by Vaccagotta

for example, the terms atthita and natthita appear found only in SN 12.15, which appear to refer to two non-Buddhist doctrines

i would suggest to investigate the Sanskrit equivalents and usage in the Vedas

:smile:
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Are words Atta and Anatta anything to do with the OP?
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asahi
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by asahi »

Anātman in Sanskrit means that "which is different from atman" or "non-self" which is different to no-self .
However , according to Shankara he does not use the term anātman to mean non-soul .
The Ātman is formless and partless whose true nature cannot be perceived, while the anātman has form, has parts and whose nature can be perceived.

If one were to follow above line of concept of Anātman , Anātman or anattā are but just being used as a "negation" !

It appears that anattā in buddhism quite different from vedas concept .

Why natthattā was used by Vaccagotta instead of anattā which stands for Anātman
that means those understand the vedas appear used it differently .
Last edited by asahi on Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SarathW
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by SarathW »

asahi wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:44 am Anātman in Sanskrit means that "which is different from atman" or "non-self" which is different to no-self .
However , according to Shankara he does not use the term anātman to mean non-soul .
The Ātman is formless and partless whose true nature cannot be perceived, while the anātman has form, has parts and whose nature can be perceived.

If one were to follow above line of concept of Anātman , Anātman or anattā are but just being used as a "negation" !

It appears that anattā in vedas quite different from buddhism concept .

Why natthattā was used by Vaccagotta instead of anattā that means those understand the vedas appear used it differently .
Good point.
So you think that we can't use Vaccagota's example when we use questions relating to Anatta?
Perhaps what Vaccagota questioning is relating to whether things exists or nonexistent not about Anatta.
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asahi
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by asahi »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 1:54 am .....

dont know , maybe some pali expert could helps .

hoti = exist

atthi = there is

“Then is this right: ‘a Realized One neither exists nor doesn’t exist after death’?”
“Kiṁ pana, bho gotama, ‘neva hoti na na hoti tathāgato paraṁ maraṇā’”ti?
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DooDoot
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by DooDoot »

asahi wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:04 am atthi = there is
atthita & natthita are two wrong views in SN 12.15. why? :shrug:
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SDC
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by SDC »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:11 am
asahi wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:04 am atthi = there is
atthita & natthita are two wrong views in SN 12.15. why? :shrug:
Good question. Perhaps because both are in reference to sabba?
  • Sabbamatthī’ti kho, kaccāna, ayameko anto.
    ‘Sabbaṁ natthī’ti ayaṁ dutiyo anto.


    “‘All exists’: Kaccana, this is one extreme. ‘All does not exist’: this is the second extreme.
Kaccana’s complete affirmation or denial of the status of “the all” seems to miss the mark.
asahi wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:04 am .....
Both atthi and hoti are used in SN 12.15 to make the description clear:
  • Dvayanissito khvāyaṁ, kaccāna, loko yebhuyyena—atthitañceva natthitañca. Lokasamudayaṁ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato yā loke natthitā sā na hoti. Lokanirodhaṁ kho, kaccāna, yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya passato yā loke atthitā sā na hoti.

    This world, Kaccana, for the most part depends upon a duality—upon the notion of existence and the notion of nonexistence. But for one who sees the origin of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of nonexistence in regard to the world. And for one who sees the cessation of the world as it really is with correct wisdom, there is no notion of existence in regard to the world.
There is no notion of existence; there is no notion of non-existence. It seems the conceiving of the question no longer arises; there is no longer an opening for the redundancy. “Things are” whether or not the quality of existence is given satisfactory treatment.
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Lucas Oliveira
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Re: atthi natthi

Post by Lucas Oliveira »

exist

Etymology
From French exister, from Latin existō (“to stand forth, come forth, arise, be”), from ex (“out”) + sistere (“to set, place”), caus. of stare (“to stand”); see stand. Compare assist, consist, desist, insist, persist, resist.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/exist
existence (n.)

late 14c., "reality," from Old French existence, from Medieval Latin existentia/exsistentia, from existentem/exsistentem (nominative existens/exsistens) "existent," present participle of Latin existere/exsistere "stand forth, come out, emerge; appear, be visible, come to light; arise, be produced; turn into," and, as a secondary meaning, "exist, be;" from ex "forth" (see ex-) + sistere "cause to stand," from PIE *si-st-, reduplicated form of root *sta- "to stand, make or be firm."

https://www.etymonline.com/word/existence
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