Upādāyarūpaṁ

Explore the ancient language of the Tipitaka and Theravāda commentaries
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

atipattoh wrote: Sun Jun 20, 2021 12:50 am
:oops: Correction on translation in earlier post.

Saṁyuktāgama雜阿含經
SA 322(三二二) 眼是內入處

佛告彼比丘:「眼是內入處,四大所造淨色,不可見,有對。耳、鼻、舌、身內入處亦如是說。」
The eye is internal sense sphere, sensitive materiality integral of four great formations, can not be seen, being obstructive; the same is true of internal sense spheres of ear, nose, tongue and body.

佛告比丘:「色外入處,若色四大造,可見,有對,是名色是外入處。」
Materiality external sense sphere; is Materiality integral of four great formations, can be seen, being obstructive; these are defined under - Materiality is external sense sphere.


復白佛言:「世尊說聲是外入處,不廣分別。云何聲是外入處?」
Q:”(May) the Blessed One teaches external sense sphere of sound, not categorizing in details. What does it means “external sense sphere of sound”?

佛告比丘:「若聲四大造,不可見,有對,如聲,香、味亦如是。」
A: Such is sound, an integral of four great formations, can not be seen, being obstructive; similar to sound, the same is true of fragrance and taste.
************
auto wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 4:43 pm
Appolgy auto, haven't got time to look into your post.

~~ metta ~~~
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by auto »

atipattoh wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 1:23 pm Appolgy auto, haven't got time to look into your post.

~~ metta ~~~
ah, no need to mention.
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

So are we any closer to the meaning of upadayarupam?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

聲-四大造,Sound - (materiality) integral of 4 Mahābhūtā
不可見 – can not be seen, not visible, not metaphysical parts that is visible
有對 – can not be seen thru eye yet obstructive, thus primarily air element (differentiated from space element), small particle that is not visible. Characteristics- motion, therefore air is only a medium, why? Air couple with fire, heat characteristics, has hotness yet no sound. Therefore, air is a medium, motion is the cause of sound. The ancient understood vibration of string produces sound (such as string of archery bow). The strength of the archer determine the loudness of the sound. It seems to me, the ancient takes air as in motion characteristics to mean a kind of mysteries strength (energy for us).

While searching for the meaning of 有對, (due to mind is 無對, then對 can not be related to contact), I come across this website that has made, a table for Internal and External Sense Spheres on SA322. Sadhu!
SixSense_Spheres.png
The āgama take the inner expression (色) to express external, where the spectrum of colours expresses the experience.

B Bodhi take directly the Mahābhūtā's dhātu as in Materiality to express both simultaneously. A word that is more flexible, material in the element sense, more practical but at the same time being abstract to cover characteristics.

The taking of ‘form’ as translation for ‘rūpa', is taking external expression to express internal, imo; a term that is constrained by it's meaning in shape or configuration. Notice that in the table, the person who has constructed it in his website, does not use the term '色'; as a distinction between that category from rūpa object; but the description on top contains the word '色' rūpa.

The internal eye sense sphere is composed of sensitive Materiality, then the perceived picture is the integral of the very same sensitive Materiality. Since the internal eye sense base can not be seen (obstructed), and that there is no construction of picture on the eye base. Picture construction is the work of the mind. Both primary (construct) and secondary (construct) image are a projection of perceived image, one natural the other purified; into external. Hence the external dhamma of the mind is not within the 11s rūpa. Image is not a form, it is a picture of the external world; a spectrum of colour (色) that expresses the world by the vision. If a person is using only one eye to see the world, will the concept of distance be perceived? Will the perception of form applies?

1) can these be “form” when there is no metaphysical thing that is formed? It is no more than just a representation, an “image” of external mind sense sphere.

2) By applying ‘form’ on both internal and external eye sense sphere, and when the other internal sense sphere is also composed of similar definition of upādāyarūpa (pasāda), then there is a risk that one might use a reverse definition to define the other external sense sphere. But there is no form on the other 4 external sense sphere, they are not visible even though all are the same, integral of Mahābhūtā; except the touch sense sphere, it is the Mahābhūtā and Materiality integral of Mahābhūtā’.
Spiny Norman wrote: Mon Jun 21, 2021 2:49 pm So are we any closer to the meaning of upadayarupam?
As to your question, i don't see how to fit in 'form' to represent rūpa. 'Materiality' has flexibility to cover both metaphysic empirical element, as well as the abstract meaning of Mahābhūtā and its characteristic.
'Composed' is a candidate for upādāya. From the table 'Composed of' seems applicable if one wants to take the 4 Mahābhūtā as metaphysic empirical element. However; what can be extracted from the archery reasoning is within the 4 Mahābhūtā, those labels of the elements are mere representations. Composed of means its individual elements are pretty much identifiable. Eye base so so; Sound base, no so. I guest my choice is restricted to integral (one that is a bit abstract), since i don't get further reasonable suggestion.

It seems my conclusion is upadayarupam being "materiality integral".
But, you have to make your own choice as to which terminology you want to take.

Note: To understand what is the secondary construct, observes those little toddler, how do they learn to speak. First they have learn how to echo what the sound of the adults voice. That very echo'ing, is a secondary construct in the mind, presented later as a voice. And today, you are able to produce 'verbal chat' internally before you start typing sentences on your phone or computer. That skill of verbal chat is a secondary construct that you learn when you are a young boy.


~~ metta ~~~
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by auto »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:07 am
DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:44 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:04 am "Clingable form" or similar looks like the obvious way to translate upadayarupam. I don't understand why it's rendered as "derived form".
I tried my best to explain this. It appears it cannot be "clingable" form because the Pali would be "upādāniya".

It appears the translation of "upadaya" would be "because of grasping".
So upadayarupam would be "Form because of grasping (derived from the four great elements)"?
maybe helps,
upadhi
nirūpadhi
I give you food and when you eat that food it brings delight in me because you are eating the food what i gave.
https://suttacentral.net/sn1.12/en/sujato wrote: “Your children bring you delight!
“Nandati puttehi puttimā,
Your cattle also bring you delight!
Gomā gohi tatheva nandati;
Variant: Gomā → gomiko (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed, pts2ed)

For attachments are a man’s delight;
Upadhīhi narassa nandanā,
without attachments there’s no delight.”
Na hi so nandati yo nirūpadhī”ti.
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/u/upadhi/ wrote:PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary
Upadhi,[fr.upa + dhā,cp.upadahati & BSk.upadhi Divy 50,224,534] 1.putting down or under,foundation,basis,ground,substratum (of rebirth)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 11:07 am
DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:44 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:04 am "Clingable form" or similar looks like the obvious way to translate upadayarupam. I don't understand why it's rendered as "derived form".
I tried my best to explain this. It appears it cannot be "clingable" form because the Pali would be "upādāniya".

It appears the translation of "upadaya" would be "because of grasping".
So upadayarupam would be "Form because of grasping (derived from the four great elements)"?
Upādāya is the gerund of upādiyati, so it should be translated as "grasping" whilst rūpaṃ in this case seems to be in the nominative singular. Roughly translated it would be "grasping form". The commentaries in part seem to interpret "derived" in the sense that they originate from clinging at the moment of rebirth-linking due to a desire to see, taste, hear etc. These dhammas then depend upon the mahābhūta in a number of ways. For example, the mahābhūta are conditions for the upādāyarūpaṁ by way of co-nascence (sahajāta), support (nissaya), presence (atthi) and non-disapperance (avigata) in relation to them as per the Paṭṭhāna. Sahajāta means both groups arise at the same time, but it is the mahābhūta which function as sahajāta and not the other way around. Nissaya means the mahābhūta function as a support for the upādāyarūpaṁ, with atthi and avigata being another way of looking at this relationship. In other words the upādāyarūpaṁ depend upon the mahābhūta despite arising with them. Whilst the upādāyarūpaṁ depend upon the mahābhūta, the mahābhūta depend upon themselves via mutual conditionality. Another example would be space (ākāsa), which although is classed as a dhamma among the upādāyarūpaṁ it is not a paramattha dhamma since it lacks sabhāva. It is therefore unreal and so is a mere concept (paññatti). There cannot be the concept of space without rūpa-rūpa (concrete or paramattha rūpa). In this sense then space is "derived" yet is not real. With these examples I wouldn't then read "derived" as in how we make pots out of clay, which is at odds with the phenomenalist outlook of the Buddha. However, I'm getting too much into the Abhidhamma here.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:06 am
Can you explain why, the 24 conditions, not conditionality of things happen just because it happens, but due to grasping?

DD and SN has suggested "Form because of grasping", close to what you propose.
Can you construct this"grasping form" into the sentence within rūpa definition?
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:06 am
Or, are you sticking to B Bodhi's translation, but using 24 conditions to explain?
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Ceisiwr »

atipattoh wrote: Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:41 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jun 27, 2021 3:06 am
Or, are you sticking to B Bodhi's translation, but using 24 conditions to explain?
Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:04 pm Yes.
Ok 👌
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Upādāyarūpaṁ, a tesseract Mahābhūtā

Post by atipattoh »

Almost 2 thousands of year ago, the Chinese bhikkhus translate the word rūpa with 色, generally we take it as colour. Surprisingly, the modern day’s application has developed colours into RGB hue that can be presented in a tesseract form.
Hue Tesseract
Hue Tesseract
IMG_20210708_111742.jpg (12.44 KiB) Viewed 539 times
Mahābhūtā, the concept of formations has similarity to this modern days tesseract of hue, RGB+opacity.

In RGB, we have (Red, Green, Blue); each scaling from 0-255. Google Wikipedia for familiarity.
Whereas, the Mahābhūtā:-
(S) Earth : Hardness (Solidity)
(F) Water : Watery (Fluidity)
(H) Fire : Heat Temperature (Hotness)
(E) Air : Motion (Energy)

For one that read the upādāyarūpa definition in plain, the representation in tesseract if, by replacing Red with Solidity, Green with Fluidity, Blue with Hotness, and Opacity with Energy, would be:
Earth (255,0,0;0), Water (0,255,0;0), Fire (0,0,255;0), Air (0,0,0;255)
But that create two aspect of rūpa. One group is solely 1 dhatu being present, the other 3 are absent. This turn Group 1 being each a metaphysical element. The second group is all 4 elements present simultaneously.

I have not Noitice sutta mentioning of, a 1 dhatu being present, the other 3 are absent situation, although one may claim that it does. We shall see about that. I have stated before, that the rūpa definition in nāmarūpaṁ on ‘ca’ and ‘upādāya’ does not allow for such position.
The four great formations and the materiality integral of the four great formations—these are called materiality.
In SN56.14. Internal Sense Spheres“…

“And what, bhikkhus, is the noble truth of suffering? It should be said: the six internal sense spheres. What six? The eye sphere … the mind sphere. This is called the noble truth of suffering.”
Here, the text in the sutta directs the attention to internal sense spheres, being the Noble Truth of Suffering. Since SA322 express clearly, internal sense spheres are integrals of pure materiality, and Form only applies to external eye sense sphere's visible object; for that reason, the person that compile the table omitted the word 色 in the whole column on external sense spheres that refer to materiality.

To understand Mahābhūtā, upādāyarūpa in group 2 (for the time being, assuming there is seperation in groups) should be able to shade some light.

There are various integrals due to all 4 great formations being present simultaneously, that S, F, H and E all in diversity of “intensity”. As far as the matter, to the ancient, those are the basic “science”.

Ice has hardness, it is solid; there is solidity (S). One can stand on iceberg . Is iceberg, earth? Does crude oil that is a form of a string with diameter of say 0.5mm in north pole, being observed by the eye, different from hair? Is your TPU phone case an earth element? Soak it in xylene for days and see what happen. The interelation of 4 Mahābhūtā are more delicate than the meaning of those plain label of names.

To borrow the hue scale, within Mahābhūta, the range of each element’s scale is (1~255), since by SA322, all 4 are present simultaneously, then the indexes partial combinations are:
Earth: (255,1,1;1),
Water: (1,255,1;1),
Fire: (1,1,255;1) and
Air: (1,1,1;255).
For demonstration purpose on a whole combinations, number as scale's index, say saliva would be something like (10,200,5;5). Therefore, both the 4 great formations and the materiality integral of the 4 great formations, does not create 2 aspects of rūpa. There is no group seperation.

MN62
“whatever internal personal component that is experienced as hard or solid – such as head-hair, body-hair, nails, teeth, skin, muscle, tendons, bone, bone-marrow, kidney, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, colon, intestines, stomach, feces, or any other internal personal component that is experienced as hard(ness) or solid(ity) – this is called the ‘internal earth element.’ Whether earth element is internal or external, it is the same earth element.
While “nails, teeth, bone” are hard and solid, but “kidney, heart, liver, membranes, spleen, lungs, colon, intestines, stomach” has solidity. Here, we see diversity of hardness; solid, solidity. This diversity expend into different phase when the material appears in smaller segment such as “ bone-marrow”. In other words, “intensity” of solidity in metaphysical material range from “255” to “1”. Within this range, this earth element contains other element, the element that can be easily identified is water element as in “colon, intestines..”, they are bendable but not flow able, liquidity of water can be observed. However, here is one interesting item that is not flow able, in between solidity and fluidity, that is classified under water element - “fat”.

With thick viscous substance of phlegm, to even better flow of thick fluid of pus, appears to provide a segregation from earth to water element:

Solidity < -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Fluidity
(colon, intestines, membranes, bone-marrow) | (fat, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat)

that seems to be differentiated by when the part being press, is classified under water if fluid can be easily pressed out. However, bone-marrow is semi-solid tissue, which would have high density of fluid, is being classified under earth element.

These what I meant when I said that
the "and" condition does not creates two aspect of rupa, only the phenomenon of permutation, ie. a combination of partial or whole of rupa's characteristics, in various formations.
Diversity of Liquidity means that Water element’s has the characteristic of flow, fluidity; functionality is cohesion.
what is the water element? The water element may be internal or external. what is the internal water element? Whatever internal personal component that is experienced as water or watery (fluidity) – such as bile, phlegm, pus, blood, sweat, fat, tears, oil, saliva, mucus, synovial fluid, urine, or any other internal personal component that is experienced as water or watery – this is called the ‘internal water element.’ Whether water element is internal or external, it is the same water element.
It seems that, the ancient would observes, when a component of parts that is being dried, leaves significant trace of solid substance, as a second criteria to classified a part as within earth element being dominant.

As for the Fire element, this description is particularly interesting, “such as what brings warmth, or causes decay, or burns, or causes what one has eaten, drunk, consumed, or swallowed to be completely digested”.

Here, the texts mention clearly about reaction. Today, we knows easily that these are acidic and alkaline chemical reaction. The ancient also may vomit out partially digested acidic food, and they would have experienced throat burning sensation as well.

As for Air element, I brought up earlier post on the relation of strength and motion with respect to bow.
The ancient understood vibration of string produces sound (such as string of archery bow). The strength of the archer determine the loudness of the sound. It seems to me, the ancient takes air as in motion characteristics to mean a kind of mysterious strength (energy for us).
What is the internal Air element? Whatever internal personal component that is experienced as Air or Airy (however gentle the motion may be) – such as up-going Air, down-going Air, Air in the belly, Air in the abdomen, Air moving along the limbs, inhalation, exhalation, or any other internal personal component that is experienced as Air or Airy
(Wind edited to Air)
‘Limbs’ may refers to the 2 primary branches of trachea, but since the description spread to other parts of the body, most probable that it refers to the limbs of hands and legs; and this Air element motion, is the energy supporting function.

If one choke another’s neck for a period of time, that person’s hand will sags. Air is a direct experienced of vitality to life. To the ancient, it is a vital “energy” source for one to continue living. Symbolically, Air represent Energy; especially in the explanation of sound. Although the elements disappear is stages, but all 4 are interlocked into a whole when one is alive.

For a dead body, first the Air element, energy vitality is gone; follows by Fire element, all reaction and heat are cooled; Water element dries up, loose fluidity, become stiff; and lastly flesh and bone return to earth.

Hair, teeth, nail are complete solid, but these are items that grows in time, it changes within visible time frame. But not things like a piece of rock. Say a man just got his new born baby. If on that day, he place a piece of rock in a box. If he open up the box 20 years later, when his boy is already 5 feet tall; will the rock grow a single bit?

Mahābhūtā does not include rocks (255,0,0;0). Not the ocean; not the forest fire, and not the air within space. MN62 clearly differentiate air element of Mahābhūta from air in space. This is crucial to the analysis. Within the description of space element in MN62, there are plenty of air within space, but these are not Mahābhūta’s air element. The air element in Mahābhūta, involves vitality and energy.

MN62 stand as a foundation to relate internal and external sense spheres. The ‘and’ (ca) and ‘integral’ (upādāya) are not meant to create two aspect of rūpa, but a constraint on the definition of internal sense spheres rūpa; the Materiality integral of, and the Mahābhūtā, excluding the '0’ index.

The text in the sutta contain whole jungle of items, one may end up taking it to mean on it’s surface value. However, analyzing those items shows that the sutta meant to display a diversity of intensity within each element. Thus, Earth, Water, Fire, and Air are symbolic labels. ‘Derive’ is not a suitable words, and ‘Compose’ take those elements away from it’s abstract notion. Earth, Water, Fire, and Air; are constitutions for the diversity of integrals in Materiality.

Frankly speaking, I do find rendering rūpa as “hue”, attractive, since Mahābhūtā are symbolic labels. ‘Hue’, a candidate for rūpa as it is kind of “out of phase”, but might do miracle. After all, Earth, Water, Fire and Air are abstract in it’s notion, as a whole. The only problem is how to handle sutra like SA322.

And ‘Matter’ does not quite fit in for Water, Fire and Air element. And to stay on the safe side, I still choose B Bodhi’s materiality for rūpa, rather than form that allow one attribute of exterior sight object apart from colour and texture, to dictate internal sense spheres and other exterior sense objects.

Interpretation of rūpa as materiality, does not take rūpa into metaphysical matter. Sutra like SA322 pointing rūpa in the form of pure Materiality when one look at the earth element, fluidity of water element “dilute” that very earth element; therefore internally, Mahābhūtā does not present as an individual element. Earth element does not solely, take the center stage. Therefore, rūpa, materiality integral of Mahābhūtā is not simply matter, MN62 meant to assist in providing explanation basis for the working mechanism of the sense spheres.

MN62 mention
Whether earth element is internal or external, it is the same earth element.
In plain, these appears to say internal or external earth element are the same. Notice that head hair is regarded as internal. What does this sentence tries to say? Does it means internal is metaphysical matter, external metaphysical matter, thus they are the same?

In the description of Fire element, would one consider these
such as what brings warmth, or causes decay, or burns, or causes what one has eaten, drunk, consumed, or swallowed to be completely digested
to be ‘This is mine, I am this, this is my self.’? It appears to be, but not necessarily bad stiches.

By removing the portion of ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.’ , then what would “internal or external, it is the same element” means?

In the practice of ‘peacefulness of earth, water, fire and air’ meditation, very much related to the internal 5 sensual sense spheres; given that SA322 specifically says within these internal sense spheres, it is the working phenomena of “pure (sensitive) materiality integral of the 4 great formations”; thus the practice is, to tranquilize these sensual sense spheres.
“Rāhula, the interior earth element is said to be anything hard, solid, and appropriated that’s internal, pertaining to an individual. This includes:“Yaṁ kiñci, rāhula, ajjhattaṁ paccattaṁ kakkhaḷaṁ kharigataṁ upādinnaṁ, seyyathidaṁ—

The interior earth element and the exterior earth element are just the earth element.
Yā ceva kho pana ajjhattikā pathavīdhātu yā ca bāhirā pathavīdhātu, pathavīdhāturevesā.
How is it possible that “head hair, body hair, nails, skin” being interior?

Does “revesā” means ‘the same’ or ‘just/simply’?; wouldn’t it be a Pali word such as “sama”. This very word appear within the sutta
Rāhula, meditate like the earth.
Pathavīsamaṁ, rāhula, bhāvanaṁ bhāvehi.
In Pali, ‘vesa’ means aspect, make up, guise.
Both, the internal earth element and the external earth element, are the guise of earth element.
As per MN62 alone, internal does not means interior, external also does not means exterior.
SixSense_InternalExternal
SixSense_InternalExternal
For the eye sense sphere, both primary and secondary images are super-positioned. Primary “is” secondary, secondary “is” the primary. Once separated, they are not exactly the same. Primary image is the internal construct, projection of the physical external object, exteriorly. Secondary image is the additional mind construct, a purified internal object construction, similarly appear to be projected exteriorly. Both internally internal and externally internal images are the guise of the 4 great elements.

In this sense, then “It should be accurately seen with right wisdom in this way: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self’ ” has reasonable meaning.

With respect to internal-external sense spheres, there are portion of internal means internally/inwardly, and external means externally-internal (Dhamma).

In MN62, “head-hair, body-hair, nails” are exterior, the sutta defined it internal. So internal-external, is not that plain as it seems.
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