Upādāyarūpaṁ

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atipattoh
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Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

Splitting from the other thread, I'm hoping to get more input to see what term is best to translate this verse about rūpa.
My proposal in the other thread for
Cattāri ca mahābhūtāni, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ — idaṁ vuccatāvuso, rūpaṁ.
was this:
The four great formations and the materiality derivation of the four great formations—these are called materiality.
For ‘bhūtā’, I was considering 'genesis'-the origin or mode of formation of something. If I were to translate ‘bhūtā’ with genesis, formation can be given back to saṅkhāra; but I felt that formation is more suitable.

Any suggestion from the members on alternative for 'formation' is much appreciated.

The next word is upādāya in upādāyarūpaṁ, which was taken as upādā-rūpaṁ.
Ceisiwr shared a link on the issue that confirm the suspicious aspect of taking upādā-rūpaṁ as a translation; that may not represent what the phrase intended to say.

Let see what B Bodhi has translated upādāya in other sutta. Taking the first sutta that appears on search engine in suttacentral.
SN22.83 Ānandasutta
Seyyathāpi, āvuso ānanda, itthī vā puriso vā daharo yuvā maṇḍanakajātiko ādāse vā parisuddhe pariyodāte acche vā udakapatte sakaṁ mukhanimittaṁ paccavekkhamāno upādāya passeyya, no anupādāya.

(B Bodhi)
“Suppose, friend Ānanda, a young woman—or a man—youthful and fond of ornaments, would examine her own facial image in a mirror or in a bowl filled with pure, clear, clean water: she would look at it with clinging, not without clinging.
Clinging (adjective)
1. (of a garment) fitting closely to the body and showing its shape. - "she was wearing a clinging black dress"
2. too dependent on someone emotionally. - "she wasn't the clinging type"
Derivation:
The action of obtaining something from a source or origin.
“the derivation of scientific laws from observation”
Derivation is one of the choice. But 'Derivation' seems to provide some kind of a link, which the origin and the product is not the same, alienated. Furthermore, derivative takes the product into empirical nature, which does not fit into the context of that phrase.

So, what would be the alternative option?
The opposite of derivative is integral.
Integral (adjective)
necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental.
If we look at the example of clinging, "she was wearing a clinging black dress"; the dress become a part of her due to the effect of "cling on to". However, clinging does not fit into the phrase. By taking the essence of clinging “fitting closely to the body and showing its shape” that become part of her, then the context of 'upādāya' in upādāyarūpaṁ is the permutation products of the characteristics of Mahābhūtā. In that case, then ‘integral’ is a suitable candidate, it does not cause a violation to the word 'and' in the phrase.
The four great formations and the materiality integral of the four great formations—these are called materiality.
I would like to know, if this randering sits well with Pali?

:thanks:
~~ metta ~~~
Last edited by atipattoh on Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DooDoot
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by DooDoot »

Grasping is not possible because:

1. Grasping arises at 9th condition.

2. No other conditions are called things subjected to grasping.

I speculated about this below:
DooDoot wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 9:12 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 10:12 am Looking at the Pali, does upadayarupam mean something like "clingable form"?

And if so, might the distinction be similar to SN 22.48, that between aggregates and clinging aggregates?
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The Pali in SN 22.48 is upādāniyaṁ (adjective)
And what are the five grasping aggregates?

Katame ca, bhikkhave, pañcupādānakkhandhā?

Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, which is accompanied by defilements and is prone to being grasped: this is called the aggregate of form connected with grasping.

Yaṁ kiñci, bhikkhave, rūpaṁ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṁ …pe… yaṁ dūre santike vā sāsavaṁ upādāniyaṁ, ayaṁ vuccati rūpupādānakkhandho.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/sujato
The Pali in SN 12.2 is upādāya (absolutive; adverb)
Reverend Ānanda, the notion “I am” occurs because of grasping, not by not grasping.
upādāya, āvuso ānanda, asmīti hoti, no anupādāya.

Grasping what?
Kiñca upādāya asmīti hoti, no anupādāya?

The notion “I am” occurs because of grasping form,
Rūpaṁ upādāya asmīti hoti, no anupādāya.

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.83/en/sujato
What are the eighteen currents of craving that derive from the interior?
Katamāni aṭṭhārasa taṇhāvicaritāni ajjhattikassa upādāya?

When there is the concept ‘I am’, there are the concepts ‘I am such’, ‘I am thus’, ‘I am otherwise’; ‘I am fleeting’, ‘I am lasting’; ‘mine’, ‘such is mine’, ‘thus is mine’, ‘otherwise is mine’; ‘also mine’, ‘such is also mine’, ‘thus is also mine’, ‘otherwise is also mine’; ‘I will be’, ‘I will be such’, ‘I will be thus’, ‘I will be otherwise’.

https://suttacentral.net/an4.199/en/sujato
“Mendicants, when what exists, because of grasping what and insisting on what, do fetters, insistence, shackles, and attachments arise?”

“Kismiṁ nu kho, bhikkhave, sati, kiṁ upādāya, kiṁ abhinivissa uppajjanti saṁyojanābhinivesavinibandhājjhosānā”ti?

https://suttacentral.net/sn22.158/en/sujato
Therefore, if upādāya in SN 12.2 was related to grasping, the translation would likely be:
The four primary elements, and form because of grasping the four primary elements.
Cattāro ca mahābhūtā, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ.

This is called form.
Idaṁ vuccati rūpaṁ.
Obviously, since grasping is the 9th condition of Dependent Origination, how could grasping occur at the 4th condition?
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:00 am Splitting from the other thread, I'm hoping to get more input to see what term is best to translate this verse about rūpa.
My proposal in the other thread for
Cattāri ca mahābhūtāni, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ — idaṁ vuccatāvuso, rūpaṁ.
was this:
The four great formations and the materiality derivation of the four great formations—these are called materiality.
For ‘bhūtā’, I was considering 'genesis'-the origin or mode of formation of something. If I were to translate ‘bhūtā’ with genesis, formation can be given back to saṅkhāra; but I felt that formation is more suitable.

Any suggestion from the members on alternative if 'formation' is much appreciated.

The next word is upādāya in upādāyarūpaṁ, which was taken as upādā-rūpaṁ.
Ceisiwr shared a link on the issue that confirm the suspicious aspect of taking upādā-rūpaṁ as a translation; that may not represent what the phrase intended to say.

Let see what B Bodhi has translated upādāya in other sutta. Taking the first sutta that appears on search engine in suttacentral.
SN22.83 Ānandasutta
Seyyathāpi, āvuso ānanda, itthī vā puriso vā daharo yuvā maṇḍanakajātiko ādāse vā parisuddhe pariyodāte acche vā udakapatte sakaṁ mukhanimittaṁ paccavekkhamāno upādāya passeyya, no anupādāya.

(B Bodhi)
“Suppose, friend Ānanda, a young woman—or a man—youthful and fond of ornaments, would examine her own facial image in a mirror or in a bowl filled with pure, clear, clean water: she would look at it with clinging, not without clinging.
Clinging (adjective)
1. (of a garment) fitting closely to the body and showing its shape. - "she was wearing a clinging black dress"
2. too dependent on someone emotionally. - "she wasn't the clinging type"
Derivation:
The action of obtaining something from a source or origin.
“the derivation of scientific laws from observation”
Derivation is one of the choice. But 'Derivation' seems to provide some kind of a link, which the origin and the product is not the same, alienated. Furthermore, derivative takes the product into empirical nature, which does not fit into the context of that phrase.

So, what would be the alternative option?
The opposite of derivative is integral.
Integral (adjective)
necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental.
If we look at the example of clinging, "she was wearing a clinging black dress"; the dress become a part of her due to the effect of "cling on to". However, clinging does not fit into the phrase. By taking the essence of clinging “fitting closely to the body and showing its shape” that become part of her, then the context of the upādāyarūpaṁ is the permutation products of the characteristics of Mahābhūtā. In that case, then ‘integral’ is a suitable candidate.
The four great formations and the materiality integral of the four great formations—these are called materiality.
I would like to know, if this randering sits well with Pali?

~~ metra ~~~
IMO "four great elements" works better than "four great formations", since the the mahabhuta sound elemental, rather than formed. What stuff is made of.

As for upadayarupam, "form that is clung to" or "clingable form" seem to convey the Pali.
"My body", "my house", "my mother"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:33 am IMO "four great elements" works better than "four great formations", since the the mahabhuta sound elemental, rather than formed. What stuff is made of.

As for upadayarupam, "form that is clung to" or "clingable form" seem to convey the Pali.
"My body", "my house", "my mother"?
:thanks: for the input.
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:04 am Grasping is not possible because:

1. Grasping arises at 9th condition.

2. No other conditions are called things subjected to grasping.
:thanks: DooDoot. I didn't follow that thread. I'll look into it after going for crowning, my tooth :|

And I did rule out the possibility of grasping at the early stage.
I look into the new translation earlier but not really click, appear to say a person purposely grasp on things. Not sure if my English understanding of the word grasping is correct.
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by DooDoot »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:15 am Not sure if my English understanding of the word grasping is correct.
My point is if upādāyarūpaṁ means grasped-rupa then the other conditions would be spoken as upādāyanama, upādāyavinnana, upādāyasalayantana and upādāyaphassa. :smile:
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:15 am
DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 4:04 am Grasping is not possible because:

1. Grasping arises at 9th condition.

2. No other conditions are called things subjected to grasping.
:thanks: DooDoot. I didn't follow that thread. I'll look into it after going for crowning, my tooth :|

And I did rule out the possibility of grasping at the early stage.
I look into the new translation earlier but not really click, appear to say a person purposely grasp on things. Not sure if my English understanding of the word grasping is correct.
I don't see why you should rule out "clingable form" if that's what the Pali suggests. And IMO clinging and grasping run right through DO, it's what "powers" the nidanas.

I speculated recently that the "clingable form" of rupa (upadayarupam) might relate to the clingable form described in SN 22.48.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
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DooDoot
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:44 am I don't see why you should rule out "clingable form" if that's what the Pali suggests.
In fact, it appears the Pali might rule the above out, per my original post. Possibly the grammar experts can clarify.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:37 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:44 am I don't see why you should rule out "clingable form" if that's what the Pali suggests.
In fact, it appears the Pali might rule the above out, per my original post. Possibly the grammar experts can clarify.
"Clingable form" or similar looks like the obvious way to translate upadayarupam. I don't understand why it's rendered as "derived form".
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DooDoot
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:04 am "Clingable form" or similar looks like the obvious way to translate upadayarupam. I don't understand why it's rendered as "derived form".
I tried my best to explain this. It appears it cannot be "clingable" form because the Pali would be "upādāniya".

It appears the translation of "upadaya" would be "because of grasping".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 9:44 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 7:04 am "Clingable form" or similar looks like the obvious way to translate upadayarupam. I don't understand why it's rendered as "derived form".
I tried my best to explain this. It appears it cannot be "clingable" form because the Pali would be "upādāniya".

It appears the translation of "upadaya" would be "because of grasping".
So upadayarupam would be "Form because of grasping (derived from the four great elements)"?
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atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:29 am
atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:15 am Not sure if my English understanding of the word grasping is correct.
My point is if upādāyarūpaṁ means grasped-rupa then the other conditions would be spoken as upādāyanama, upādāyavinnana, upādāyasalayantana and upādāyaphassa. :smile:
:thanks:
This is new to me, i need to slowly digest the meaning and its implication.

First thing come to mind is you are taking the whole link as process.
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:29 am
atipattoh wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 5:15 am Not sure if my English understanding of the word grasping is correct.
My point is if upādāyarūpaṁ means grasped-rupa then the other conditions would be spoken as upādāyanama, upādāyavinnana, upādāyasalayantana and upādāyaphassa. :smile:
The suttas do talk about clinging aggregates.

And remember that DO is an elaboration of the Second Truth, so the whole thing is about craving, grasping and clinging. All the nidanas are effected.
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DooDoot
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by DooDoot »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:03 pm The suttas do talk about clinging aggregates.
Not at nama-rupa. The Pali forum is a serious forum. Its scholarly.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 8:53 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Jun 17, 2021 2:03 pm The suttas do talk about clinging aggregates.
Not at nama-rupa. The Pali forum is a serious forum. Its scholarly.
OK, let's stick with the Pali, rather than bringing in DO interpretations.

We were discussing the meaning of upadayarupam. I suggested "clingable form", but you thought upadaya meant "because of grasping".
So does upadayarupam mean "Form because of grasping"?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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