My proposal in the other thread for
was this:Cattāri ca mahābhūtāni, catunnañca mahābhūtānaṁ upādāyarūpaṁ — idaṁ vuccatāvuso, rūpaṁ.
For ‘bhūtā’, I was considering 'genesis'-the origin or mode of formation of something. If I were to translate ‘bhūtā’ with genesis, formation can be given back to saṅkhāra; but I felt that formation is more suitable.The four great formations and the materiality derivation of the four great formations—these are called materiality.
Any suggestion from the members on alternative for 'formation' is much appreciated.
The next word is upādāya in upādāyarūpaṁ, which was taken as upādā-rūpaṁ.
Ceisiwr shared a link on the issue that confirm the suspicious aspect of taking upādā-rūpaṁ as a translation; that may not represent what the phrase intended to say.
Let see what B Bodhi has translated upādāya in other sutta. Taking the first sutta that appears on search engine in suttacentral.
SN22.83 Ānandasutta
Seyyathāpi, āvuso ānanda, itthī vā puriso vā daharo yuvā maṇḍanakajātiko ādāse vā parisuddhe pariyodāte acche vā udakapatte sakaṁ mukhanimittaṁ paccavekkhamāno upādāya passeyya, no anupādāya.
(B Bodhi)
“Suppose, friend Ānanda, a young woman—or a man—youthful and fond of ornaments, would examine her own facial image in a mirror or in a bowl filled with pure, clear, clean water: she would look at it with clinging, not without clinging.
Clinging (adjective)
1. (of a garment) fitting closely to the body and showing its shape. - "she was wearing a clinging black dress"
2. too dependent on someone emotionally. - "she wasn't the clinging type"
Derivation is one of the choice. But 'Derivation' seems to provide some kind of a link, which the origin and the product is not the same, alienated. Furthermore, derivative takes the product into empirical nature, which does not fit into the context of that phrase.Derivation:
The action of obtaining something from a source or origin.
“the derivation of scientific laws from observation”
So, what would be the alternative option?
The opposite of derivative is integral.
If we look at the example of clinging, "she was wearing a clinging black dress"; the dress become a part of her due to the effect of "cling on to". However, clinging does not fit into the phrase. By taking the essence of clinging “fitting closely to the body and showing its shape” that become part of her, then the context of 'upādāya' in upādāyarūpaṁ is the permutation products of the characteristics of Mahābhūtā. In that case, then ‘integral’ is a suitable candidate, it does not cause a violation to the word 'and' in the phrase.Integral (adjective)
necessary to make a whole complete; essential or fundamental.
I would like to know, if this randering sits well with Pali?The four great formations and the materiality integral of the four great formations—these are called materiality.
~~ metta ~~~