Upādāyarūpaṁ

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asahi
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by asahi »

According to Agama (&SN) , the physical body and external five sense bases are the four great elements , composed of four great elements and thus referred as rupa (色 rupa , 色法 rupa phenomena , 色陰 rupa aggregate)



SA306

此四是无色阴。身根是色阴。此名为人。如上说。乃至灭尽。涅盘。缘意。法生意识.三事和合触。触俱生受。想.思。此四无色阴.四大。士夫所依。此等法名为人。
Body is rupa aggregate


SA55
世尊告諸比丘 :「我今當說陰及受陰。
云何為陰?若所有諸色,若過去、若未來、若現在,若內、若外,若麁、若細,若好、若醜,若遠、若近,彼一切總說色陰
All kind of rupa , past future present internal external coarse fine fair ugly far near in its totality are called rupa aggregate


《SN 22-48
比丘們!凡任何色,不論過去、未來、現在,或內、或外,或粗、或細,或下劣、或勝妙,或遠、或近,這被稱為色蘊。》
Whatever rupa whether past future present internal external coarse fine ugly fair far near these are called rupa aggregate


SA322
佛告彼比丘:「眼是內入處,四大所造淨色,不可見,有對。耳、鼻、舌、身內入處亦如是說。」eyes the internal sense base are composed of four great elements

佛告比丘:「色外入處,若色四大造,可見,有對,是名色是外入處。」
Rupa of external sense bases are composed of four great elements

復白佛言:「世尊說聲是外入處,不廣分別。云何聲是外入處?」
Buddha said sound are external sense bases

佛告比丘:「若聲四大造,不可見,有對,如聲,香、味亦如是。
Sound are composed of four great elements , thus sound odor flavor....


佛告比丘:「觸外入處者,謂四大及四大造色,不可見,有對,是名觸外入處。」
tactual are external sense bases , namely are four great elements and rupa composed of four great elements
Last edited by asahi on Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:32 pm According to Agama (&SN) , the physical body and external five sense bases are the four great elements , composed of four great elements .



SA306

此四是无色阴。身根是色阴。此名为人。如上说。乃至灭尽。涅盘。缘意。法生意识.三事和合触。触俱生受。想.思。此四无色阴.四大。士夫所依。此等法名为人。
Body is rupa aggregate


SA55
世尊告諸比丘 :「我今當說陰及受陰。
云何為陰?若所有諸色,若過去、若未來、若現在,若內、若外,若麁、若細,若好、若醜,若遠、若近,彼一切總說色陰
All kind of rupa , past future present internal external coarse fine fair ugly far near in its totality are called rupa aggregate


《SN 22-48
比丘們!凡任何色,不論過去、未來、現在,或內、或外,或粗、或細,或下劣、或勝妙,或遠、或近,這被稱為色蘊。》
Whatever rupa whether past future present internal external coarse fine ugly fair far near these are called rupa aggregate


SA322
佛告彼比丘:「眼是內入處,四大所造淨色,不可見,有對。耳、鼻、舌、身內入處亦如是說。」eyes the internal base are composed of four great elements

佛告比丘:「色外入處,若色四大造,可見,有對,是名色是外入處。」
Rupa of external sense bases are composed of four great elements

復白佛言:「世尊說聲是外入處,不廣分別。云何聲是外入處?」
Buddha said sounds are external sense bases

佛告比丘:「若聲四大造,不可見,有對,如聲,香、味亦如是。
Sounds are composed of four great elements , thus sounds odors flavors....


佛告比丘:「觸外入處者,謂四大及四大造色,不可見,有對,是名觸外入處。」
touches are external sense bases , namely are four great elements and composed of four great elements
So according to this translation of the Chinese, sense-objects like sights and sounds are composed of the mahabhuta, rather than derived from them?

But say I'm looking at the sea. How is the sight of the sea, an image, "composed" of the water element? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say the image of the sea is derived from the water element?
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asahi
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by asahi »

Rupa are both in the sense are of four great elements and composed or derived from four great elements .
Derive = compose
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:50 pm Rupa are both in the sense are of four great elements and composed or derived from four great elements .
"Composed of" and "derived from" are quite different though.
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asahi
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by asahi »

Fyi according to bhikkhu suddhasa translation he also used composed instead of derived .
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:54 pm Fyi according to bhikkhu suddhasa translation he also used composed instead of derived .
"Composed of" doesn't make sense though.

If we say a tree is mainly earth element, how is the sound of a tree falling "composed" of earth element?
Last edited by Spiny Norman on Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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asahi
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by asahi »

According to agama 所造 means made of , or build of .
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:57 pm According to agama 所造 means made of , or build of .
According to that particular translation, perhaps.
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asahi
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by asahi »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:55 pm If we say a tree is mainly earth element, how is the sound of a tree falling "composed" of earth element?
Well , if following the suttas those are of mahabhuta and made of mahabhuta .
If the five external sense objects are not made of or even derive from mahabhuta which is equivalent to rupa (& aggregate) , dont know you can find out any sutta that describe them ? :shrug:


If the sound of a falling tree are not of mahabhuta or derived from it , are you suggesting the Buddha didnt explained well and somehow missed out another kind of mahabhuta ?
:roll:


Ok good nite . :anjali:
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Spiny Norman
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by Spiny Norman »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 3:04 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:55 pm If we say a tree is mainly earth element, how is the sound of a tree falling "composed" of earth element?
Well , if following the suttas those are of mahabhuta and made of mahabhuta .
If the five external sense objects are not made of or even derive from mahabhuta which is equivalent to rupa (& aggregate) , dont know you can find out any sutta that describe them ? :shrug:


If the sound of a falling tree are not of mahabhuta or derived from it , are you suggesting the Buddha didnt explained well and somehow missed out another kind of mahabhuta ?
:roll:


Ok good nite . :anjali:
No, I'm just saying that sense-objects like sights and sounds are derived from the mahabhuta, not composed of them.

Any more thoughts on the meaning of upadayarupam?
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auto
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by auto »

rupa,
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.6/en/sujato wrote:“Mendicants, do you you see this monk coming—ugly, unsightly, deformed, and despised by the mendicants?”
“passatha no tumhe, bhikkhave, etaṁ bhikkhuṁ āgacchantaṁ dubbaṇṇaṁ duddasikaṁ okoṭimakaṁ bhikkhūnaṁ paribhūtarūpan”ti?
kaya,
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.6/en/sujato wrote:“Geese, herons, and peacocks,
“Haṁsā koñcā mayūrā ca,
elephants and spotted deer—
hatthayo pasadā migā;
though their bodies are not equal,
Sabbe sīhassa bhāyanti,
they all fear the lion.
natthi kāyasmiṁ tulyatā.
sarira,
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.6/en/sujato wrote: So it is for humans—
Evameva manussesu,
if a little person is wise,
daharo cepi paññavā;
they’re the truly great one,
So hi tattha mahā hoti,
not the fool with a good body.”
neva bālo sarīravā”ti.
Rupa: maha(great) if it is wise, pari(perverted) if it is fool. Maybe the wise and fool denote attention(manasikara)?
https://suttacentral.net/sn21.6/en/sujato wrote:“That mendicant is very mighty and powerful. It’s not easy to find an attainment that he has not already attained.
“Eso kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu mahiddhiko mahānubhāvo, na ca sā samāpatti sulabharūpā yā tena bhikkhunā asamāpannapubbā.
sulabharūpā -
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/s/sulabha/ wrote: Concise Pali-English Dictionary by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera
sulabha:easy to be obtained.
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:32 pm According to Agama (&SN) , the physical body and external five sense bases are the four great elements , composed of four great elements and thus referred as rupa (色 rupa , 色法 rupa phenomena , 色陰 rupa aggregate)
Can I take that it is agreeable, form is not a proper translation for rūpa?
SA306
此四是无色阴。身根是色阴。此名为人。如上说。乃至灭尽。涅盘。缘意。法生意识.三事和合触。触俱生受。想.思。此四无色阴.四大。士夫所依。此等法名为人。
Body is rupa aggregate
SA55
世尊告諸比丘 :「我今當說陰及受陰。
云何為陰?若所有諸色,若過去、若未來、若現在,若內、若外,若麁、若細,若好、若醜,若遠、若近,彼一切總說色陰
All kind of rupa , past future present internal external coarse fine fair ugly far near in its totality are called rupa aggregate


《SN 22-48
比丘們!凡任何色,不論過去、未來、現在,或內、或外,或粗、或細,或下劣、或勝妙,或遠、或近,這被稱為色蘊。》
Whatever rupa whether past future present internal external coarse fine ugly fair far near these are called rupa aggregate
These are quite common phrases that appear, agreeable.
SA322
佛告彼比丘:「眼是內入處,四大所造淨色,不可見,有對。耳、鼻、舌、身內入處亦如是說。」eyes the internal sense base are composed of four great elements

佛告比丘:「色外入處,若色四大造,可見,有對,是名色是外入處。」
Rupa of external sense bases are composed of four great elements
眼是內入處,四大所造淨色
外入處,若色四大造
Notice this special term for internal sense bases (內入處) is 淨色 (pure rūpa) - That is the secondary image. It is categorised as can not be seen (不可見); but with proper training, “can” be seen. More beautiful than primary, because of pure rūpa.
External sense base (外入處), no mentioning of pure. – primary image, no purification.
復白佛言:「世尊說聲是外入處,不廣分別。云何聲是外入處?」
Buddha said sound are external sense bases

佛告比丘:「若聲四大造,不可見,有對,如聲,香、味亦如是。
Sound are composed of four great elements , thus sound odor flavor....


佛告比丘:「觸外入處者,謂四大及四大造色,不可見,有對,是名觸外入處。」
tactual are external sense bases , namely are four great elements and rupa composed of four great elements
Translating Mahābhūtā, I will avoid element. Rupa is composed of elements that can be seen (可見) by the eye, no issue. When it comes to the other sense base, can not be seen (不可見), can be extremely misleading. Element (元素) means when it is composed into an object that is sense by the sense sphere, there is a thing. Those that can be seen by the eye, no problem at all. But for other senses, there is hardly ‘a thing’. Even smoke particle is approximately 1 μm, smallest smell particle is only 0.0004 μm. Touch and Sound are completely out. That is the reason why I choose formation, rather than element, after all, Pali is bhūtā, not dhātu. You have to be aware that Chinese write 四大种. Chinese is very careful not to include 元素 as in 四大种元素 because it is not元素. Dhātu is not 元素, not an empirical metaphysical element, because rupa that is being emphasize is the characteristics, a phenomenon.

You use composed, I choose integral or inherent; because, as i mention many time, the important aspect of (Mahābhūtā dhātu) great formations' element that is perceived and experience, are the characteristics, not the sense object itself.

~~ metta ~~~
atipattoh
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by atipattoh »

Spiny Norman wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:55 pm "Composed of" doesn't make sense though.

If we say a tree is mainly earth element, how is the sound of a tree falling "composed" of earth element?
This is the quote by asahi. Note that sound can not be seen.
asahi wrote: Sat Jun 19, 2021 2:32 pm若聲四大造,不可見,有對,如聲,香、味亦如是。
My translation:
Such is sound, an integral of four great formations, can not be seen, there is contact; similar to sound, the same is true of fragrance and taste.
Sound can not be seen. It is not composed of, nor of metaphysical element of earth. Composed seems to fall short for sound.

:thanks: asahi, for referencing that sutra, it makes reasoning a lot more easier.

~~ metta ~~~
SarathW
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by SarathW »

As per Abhidhamma, there are four great elements.
The rest of the 24 elements are termed Upadayrupa.
This can be further analysed as that out of 18 concretely produce Rupa, 14 of them are Upadayrupa of the four great elements.
Other 10 abstract Rupa produced by other causes.

https://puredhamma.net/tables-and-summa ... rial-form/
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asahi
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Re: Upādāyarūpaṁ

Post by asahi »

However , kalaparupa contemplation doesnt means this is about PS .
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