Question about learning some suttas by heart

[Mr. Seek]

Hey. Some suttas I really love, like the whole Atthakavagga (Snp 4) and Parayanavagga (Snp 5). I already know the latter by heart, in English, and I've started studying the former too, aiming to learn it by heart as well. Basically memorization, recitation, and reflection, but in Engliah.

Here's my question: over the course of my studies I've realized time and time again just how complex Pali can be, in a good way, and just how hard it is for translations to provide the full, unadulterated meaning of the texts. So, I was wondering--can I, should I, attempt learning these suttas by heart, as they are in Pali? I'll be utilizing these texts on a day-to-day basis for probably the rest of my life, so I thought why not learn the real thing, in Pali? Is it wise? Possible?

I already know most of the dhamma terms and their many meanings. The biggest hurdle would be grammar. The miscellaneous words wouldn't be a problem, so long as the available online dictionaries prove useful. Note that I'm talking about not just learning to mindlessly recite it, but also understand it--in Pali.

[Sam Vara]

Hey. Some suttas I really love, like the whole Atthakavagga (Snp 4) and Parayanavagga (Snp 5). I already know the latter by heart, in English, and I've started studying the former too, aiming to learn it by heart as well. Basically memorization, recitation, and reflection, but in Engliah.

Here's my question: over the course of my studies I've realized time and time again just how complex Pali can be, in a good way, and just how hard it is for translations to provide the full, unadulterated meaning of the texts. So, I was wondering--can I, should I, attempt learning these suttas by heart, as they are in Pali? I'll be utilizing these texts on a day-to-day basis for probably the rest of my life, so I thought why not learn the real thing, in Pali? Is it wise? Possible?

I already know most of the dhamma terms and their many meanings. The biggest hurdle would be grammar. The miscellaneous words wouldn't be a problem, so long as the available online dictionaries prove useful. Note that I'm talking about not just learning to mindlessly recite it, but also understand it--in Pali.

This sounds like a great idea, if you like recitation. It's certainly possible, if you have already memorised swathes of suttas in English, and if you have an understanding of the individual Pali terms.

Depending on your abilities with languages, the grammar can be approached in two different ways. You can teach yourself the basics independent of the suttas - just memorise the declensions, tenses, types of compounds, prefixes, etc., either by ploughing through a text like Warder's Introduction to Pali
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-P ... 8180901203

or (for real masochists!) sets of grammar tables.

I also found this useful:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Buddhism-Pali- ... 0993477046

Alternatively, just learn them in Pali and sort out what they mean as you go along. I've found that the Digital Pali Reader
https://www.digitalpalireader.online/_d ... index.html
is helpful with that. You can work through the sutta in Pali, and then look up declensions and tenses and so on, as you go. Providing you know what the sutta means, you'll probably not need to know why it means it.

Hopefully Ven. Dhammanando can also offer advice on this - his knowledge and experience of such matters is I think the best we have here on DW.

[Mr. Seek]

My biggest concern, I think, is whether this would be a wise decision, something feasible, a worthy investment of my time and resources. Because it definitely will be hard and time consuming--not just learning the stuff initially, but also keeping everything memorized, regularly reciting it, etc.

Would definitely appreciate Ven. Dhammanando's input.

[Mr. Seek]

... either by ploughing through a text like Warder's Introduction to Pali
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-P ... 8180901203

What would my best course of action be, considering I'm only interested in Snp 4 and Snp 5? From my knowledge, the language there is archaic, much more so than for example what can be found in DN and MN, i.e. the stuff that is usually used as teaching material, e.g. by Warder.

[Sam Vara]

... either by ploughing through a text like Warder's Introduction to Pali
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-P ... 8180901203

What would my best course of action be, considering I'm only interested in Snp 4 and Snp 5? From my knowledge, the language there is archaic, much more so than for example what can be found in DN and MN, i.e. the stuff that is usually used as teaching material, e.g. by Warder.

Yes, Warder's exercises are exclusively from DN.

Your best option might be to do your best with the Snp suttas and a dictionary, and then to ask here when you get stuck and can't see how the Pali translates as it does. I often do that here and our resident scholars are usually able to help out!

[frank k]

Hey. Some suttas I really love, like the whole Atthakavagga (Snp 4) and Parayanavagga (Snp 5). I already know the latter by heart, in English, ...

That's awesome!
How long does it take you to recite Snp 4 and 5?

I was thinking about memorizing Snp 5 (in pali), 18 of the main suttas skipping the prologue and epilogue suttas.
I think it's definitely worthwhile to memorize the pali. At some point you're probably going to explore different interpretation on parts of what you memorized, and there's no way for you to know what you're referring to unless you have a baseline with the pali source.

What I'd suggest is (and I plan to do that myself in the near future) arrange the pali + english translation in word for word order as much as possible.
It will be easier to relate memroized text and meaning this way.
https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-snp/kn-snp-v05/
(currently that's using Ven. T's translation, I plan to go through and put in pali word for word order)

[Mr. Seek]

How long does it take you to recite Snp 4 and 5?

In English though. I can do it in different speeds. After hundreds of recitations... I can recite the whole 16 dialogues of Snp 5 in a little less than 11 minutes, but that's in super fast mode, no skipping on the things that repeat. Just made the count using stopwatch.

I don't know the full Snp 4 yet, only one sutta and a half from ir, so I can't say about that. I know Snp 1.3 though. When I'm taking my time I can usually recite everything that I know in like one 20 minute walk.

I was thinking about memorizing Snp 5 (in pali), 18 of the main suttas skipping the prologue and epilogue suttas.
I think it's definitely worthwhile to memorize the pali. At some point you're probably going to explore different interpretation on parts of what you memorized, and there's no way for you to know what you're referring to unless you have a baseline with the pali source.

For sure. I've already done extensive study on it, as far as possible. Read nearly every single English translation, even the commentaries, notes, etc. Compared everything and picked what made the most sense.

Alexander Wynne is one academic that I would highly recommend in this case. One of his books, on EBT meditation, discusses Snp 5, and has dozens of pages on it. He also has OCBS lectures and PDF presentations on the subject. He has made clear a lot of points for me. For him, Snp 5.6, Snp 5.13 and Snp 5.14, are literally some of the most early Buddhist suttas in existence, with evidence in them that the Parayanavagga describes a real, actual event, with Gotama's answers being really Gotama's answers. He also speaks and writes about Snp 4.

What I'd suggest is (and I plan to do that myself in the near future) arrange the pali + english translation in word for word order as much as possible.
It will be easier to relate memroized text and meaning this way.
https://lucid24.org/kn/kn-snp/kn-snp-v05/
(currently that's using Ven. T's translation, I plan to go through and put in pali word for word order)

Yeah, it's a great idea. When it comes to Snp 5, 99% of my translation is from Ven. Thanissaro. His sounds the coolest and makes the most sense. I did apply some slight changes and additions though, as I saw fit, when comparing translations, reading up on Wynne's articles, etc.

For example, in Udaya's questions, there's a complicated phrase that some translate as "With what does it (the world) roam in doubt?". Most translate it that way. But Ven Thanissaro translates it as "With what is it (the world) examined?" So I learned and recite both translations of this question, same for the answer given. "With delight the world is fettered. With directed thought it roams in doubt. With directed thought it's examined. Through the abandoning of craving is there said to be unbinding." Kind of amateur and makeshift, but it serves me well.

You can probably see just why I want to learn the Pali. Because it would be sooo much more accurate and authentic. But then again, it would take me a lot of time and resources, as I don"t know Pali. I know all of the special Dhamma terms and some common stuff, but the grammar is what's really off-putting.

[Mr. Seek]

Meh. I thought about it some more. Gonna just push the idea aside indefinitely. Times are screwed, I need to focus more on meditation rather than scholarly work. I'll have to make due with the translations. If maybe in a couple of decades the ever-chanted mantra of 'progress' manifests to us a heavenly way of life, one in which we don't have to worry about basic necessities, then I'll reconsider.