Ceto-Vimutti
Ceto-Vimutti
Why is that term often translated in convoluted ways ? Isn't it just "mental liberation" or "will-liberation" ?
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
How is it often translated in convoluted ways ?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
I suppose there is the bizarre 'awareness-release'.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
Hello. I may be useful if a benevolent Pali guru could explain what type of compound Ceto-Vimutti is, namely:
1. Is 'ceto' an adjective, therefore the translation is 'mental liberation'?
2. Or is 'ceto' a noun, therefore the translation is 'liberation of mind'?
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
Yeah Bhikkhu Bodhi wrongly translated on purpose Ceto-Vimutti as "Deliverance of the heart" because the sect to which he pertains doesn't view the 4 immeasurables as leading to nibbāna, even though the Buddha explicitly stated countless times that they directly lead to it.
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
For what reasons do u regard the above as "convoluted"? Thanks
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
Just because it uses less common words. "Deliverance" makes me think of duelling banjos or Amazon packages. I don't personally have a problem with it, I just thought it might be the sort of thing the OP was meaning.
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
DooDoot wrote: ↑Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:50 amHello. I may be useful if a benevolent Pali guru could explain what type of compound Ceto-Vimutti is, namely:
1. Is 'ceto' an adjective, therefore the translation is 'mental liberation'?
2. Or is 'ceto' a noun, therefore the translation is 'liberation of mind'?
The latter, I think. There is also paññāvimutti. They are normally translated as "liberation of... Also, if it were merely adjectival it would go on to say what it is liberation of, or from.
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
I'm no expert on Paali, but since it's "ceto" and not "citta" I'd assume that's it's an adjective, not a noun.
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
Respected Sir,
In my Pāli course, we had this word and its definitely a noun, Masc. Noun and ‘Ceto’ is a declined form of the noun 'Cetasa'. It could be either Nominative case, Accusative case or Vocative case of declension, all of which are 'Ceto'. Pl. refer to this website http://www.buddha-vacana.org/toolbox/noundec.html. You can use the find feature (Ctrl + F) and type 'ceto' to easily navigate to the right section of the webpage, as it’s a huge page.
Now in the applied sense it’s meaning could be either ‘thoughts’ or ‘mind’ depending on the situation.
In the case of ‘Cetovimutti’, it means ‘liberation of the mind’. From what? From ‘thoughts’ and from the ‘5 mental hindrances (pañca-nīvaraṇa) of sensual desires (kāmacchanda), ill-will (vyāpāda), sloth and torpor (thīna-middha), restlessness and anxiety (uddhacca-kukkucca) and skeptical doubts (vicikicca).
For Removal of (distracting thoughts) during concentration (samādhi), pl. refer to (Vitakkasaṇṭṭhāna Sutta) MN 20.
This liberated state (cetovimutti) is achieved through the 8 stages of concentration (samādhi) viz. the 4 form jhāna and the 4 formless jhāna. As you progress from the 1st stage to the 8th stage, each of the mental hindrances are eradicated as under : Wallace 2006 pp. 158-159.
1. vitakka ("applied thought) counteracts sloth-torpor (lethargy and drowsiness)
2. vicāra ("sustained thought) counteracts doubt (uncertainty)
3. pīti (rapture) counteracts ill-will (malice)
4. sukha (non-sensual pleasure) counteracts restlessness-worry (excitation and anxiety)
5. ekaggatā (one-pointedness) counteracts sensory desire
For detailed explanation, pl refer to “The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest” by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera at https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el026.html
Hope this helps a bit…..
- Dhammanando
- Posts: 6512
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
- Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
It's a noun and the compound is traditionally treated as either an instrumental or a genitive tappurisa.
Instrumental
"Deliverance [from defilements] by [the training of] the thought-process."
Genitive
"Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
Thank you Venerable. Why do u translate 'ceto' as 'thought-process'? Is not the luminous mind (citta) or a luminous consciousness (vinnana) also liberation?Dhammanando wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:54 am Instrumental
"Deliverance [from defilements] by [the training of] the thought-process."
Genitive
"Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
Re: Ceto-Vimutti
Venerable. I suppose my previous current question to you is based on the common view that 'liberation' is often viewed as liberation from the thought-process.Dhammanando wrote: ↑Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:54 am "Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."
How would you compare the term 'cetovimutti' (say found in MN 29/30 or MN 43) to the term 'vimocayaṁ cittaṁ' found in MN 118?
Also, it appears MN 43 refers to five types of 'cetovimutti', namely, via the 4th jhana, metta, nothingness, signless & emptiness.
Thank you
Last edited by DooDoot on Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/paticcasamuppada
https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati