Ceto-Vimutti

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Pulsar
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by Pulsar »

a question about vimocayam cittam vs ceto-vimutti, I noticed on this thread.
freeing the mind I will breathe in, vimocayaṁ cittaṁ
until an expert answer arrives, I thought I will try this..
It is one way of freeing the mind, this word "vimocayam" is used when the teaching uses breath as a vehicle that leads to the freedom of mind such as in MN 118.
When successful it leads to the same goal. Whether you use breath, or 4 brahma viharas, or Satipatthana as in SN 47.42, or the Similes of the 4 jhanas like the soap powder, lake on the mountain peak, water lilies in a pond, a figure encased in pure white, they all do the
same job.
The freed mind is listed as a wishless mind, signless mind or empty mind, or freed by wisdom, Panna-vimutti. Doctrinal wise, it is the same thing. Mind has shed the samsaric aspect, or samsaric consciounesss that gives birth to love, hatred and confusion.
One is home free. I hope this helps, until we have the Pali analysed
Best :candle:
PS I also read vimōcana (विमोचन).—n S vimōkṣaṇa n S Liberating...
not sure whether it is the same in Pali, anyways it is something to do with release or liberation,
released by breath??
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Dhammanando
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by Dhammanando »

DooDoot wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:59 am Why do u translate 'ceto' as 'thought-process'?
It's an adaptation of the rendering "thinking process" used in volume II of Margaret Cone's dictionary.

I came across it when the volume was first published and initially didn't much take to it. In fact I thought it nearly as dodgy as Thanissaro's ridiculous rendering. However, having learned to hold Cone's scholarly judgment in high regard I decided to look into the matter. I went through the Tipiṭaka checking every occurrence of ceta and its compounds, along with the commentarial glosses to the same. I found there was no place where "thinking process" didn't fit, many places where it seemed the best fit, and even a couple where it seemed the only reasonable fit. And so I was converted, began using it in my own dhammacintā and bhāvanā, and was pleased with the changes this wrought.

In my post, however, I shortened "thinking" to "thought" just to make it one syllable less of a mouthful.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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DooDoot
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by DooDoot »

Dhammanando wrote: Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:37 amIt's an adaptation of the rendering "thinking process" used in volume II of Margaret Cone's dictionary.
Thank you Venerable. I was browsing Abhidhamma recently, which appears to say consciousness, feeling, perception & formations aggregates are co-joined (saṁsaṭṭha). This idea appears to recently have become quite popular on internet forums. I have read it twice within the last week as claiming to represent the Sutta view, even though I have only read suttas saying consciousness, feeling & perception are co-joined. Since commonly a liberated mind is identified with an empty, signless or luminous bright mind (including with the Dhammapada, which says formations are the supreme suffering) , would your 'thought-process' interpretation support Abhidhamma, namely, that any consciousness must include thought-process (sankhara aggregate)? Are you aware of any suttas support this view? Thank you
Pulsar wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:59 pmThe freed mind is listed as a wishless mind, signless mind or empty mind, or freed by wisdom...
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cittaanurakkho
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by cittaanurakkho »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:59 pm ...
One is home free.
...
Not necessary home free. Cetovimutti can be temporary:

https://suttacentral.net/sn4.23/en/sujato
Then Venerable Godhika, meditating diligent, keen, and resolute, experienced temporary freedom of heart.
Atha kho āyasmā godhiko appamatto ātāpī pahitatto viharanto sāmayikaṁ cetovimuttiṁ phusi.
But then he fell away from that temporary freedom of heart.
Atha kho āyasmā godhiko tamhā sāmayikāya cetovimuttiyā parihāyi.
Ven. Godhika fell away from cetovimutti no less than six times and ...
Pulsar
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by Pulsar »

cittaanurakkho wrote
Not necessary home free.
Cetovimutti can be temporary:
Of course the glimpses of freedom during jhana are temporary. Take a look, if you have not read my Jhana thread. viewtopic.php?f=43&t=34757&p=635015#p635015
The practice is gradual as Kevaddha sutta writes.
I was under the impression that DDD was referring to the final liberation.
My Dearest DD, were you not?
In the sutta you present, it appears that Ven. Godhika reached final liberation before
passing away.
"He defeated the army of death,
and won’t return for any future life.
Having plucked out craving, root and all
Godhika is extinguished.”
But this may have to be discussed under a different heading. "Does the Arahant pass in and out of the state of liberation?", which Mahayana appeared to conclude?? That is a long story. We can bring in SN 22.88
Assaji, also.
With love :candle:
cittaanurakkho
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by cittaanurakkho »

Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:54 am
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:50 am 2. Or is 'ceto' a noun, therefore the translation is 'liberation of mind'?
It's a noun and the compound is traditionally treated as either an instrumental or a genitive tappurisa.

Instrumental

"Deliverance [from defilements] by [the training of] the thought-process."

Genitive

"Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."
Ven.,

I am a newbie in Pali. I have a question regarding the instrumental/genitive case.

Frequently cetovimutti is paired up with paññavimutti. I can understand the instrumental case of paññavimutti: "Deliverance [from defilements] by wisdom". But in my mind, genitive case of paññavimutti would be very strange: "Deliverance of the wisdom [from defilements]". Is there in the canon an example of the genitive case of paññavimutti or cetovimutti?
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DooDoot
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by DooDoot »

Pulsar wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 9:40 am I was under the impression that DDD was referring to the final liberation.
My Dearest DD, were you not?
Dear Pulsar. MN 43 refers to five liberations of mind however one, namely, the unshakable freedom of mind (akuppā cetovimutti), is classed as the foremost. This akuppā cetovimutti is also the conclusion of MN 29 and MN 30.
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DooDoot
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by DooDoot »

cittaanurakkho wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 10:45 am
Dhammanando wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:54 am
DooDoot wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 11:50 am 2. Or is 'ceto' a noun, therefore the translation is 'liberation of mind'?
It's a noun and the compound is traditionally treated as either an instrumental or a genitive tappurisa.

Instrumental

"Deliverance [from defilements] by [the training of] the thought-process."

Genitive

"Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."
Ven.,

I am a newbie in Pali. I have a question regarding the instrumental/genitive case.

Frequently cetovimutti is paired up with paññavimutti. I can understand the instrumental case of paññavimutti: "Deliverance [from defilements] by wisdom". But in my mind, genitive case of paññavimutti would be very strange: "Deliverance of the wisdom [from defilements]". Is there in the canon an example of the genitive case of paññavimutti or cetovimutti?
Hi. Merely guessing, I am not sure the above question can be answered because Ven. Dhammanando referred to a "instrumental or a genitive tappurisa". "Tappurisa" is a word compound. In other words, because the prefixes of a word compound (such as pañña & ceto) retain their original form, whether they are instrumental or genitive is merely deduced by the context.

For example, the respective instrumental and genitive case spellings of panna i guess would be pannaya. Below is an example of the instrumental case.
Instrumental wrote:“Mendicants, when a mendicant’s mind has been well consolidated with wisdom it’s appropriate for them to say:

“Yato kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno paññāya cittaṁ suparicitaṁ hoti, tassetaṁ, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno kallaṁ vacanāya:
But a word compound (tappurisa) that is instrumental is not spelt paññāyavimutti. It is spelt pannavimutti; thus that panna is instrumental is merely deduced by the context, it appears.

Just as you said: "Deliverance of the wisdom would be very strange". :smile:
Last edited by DooDoot on Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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cittaanurakkho
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by cittaanurakkho »

DooDoot wrote: Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:18 am Hi. Merely guessing, I am not sure the above question can be answered because Ven. Dhammanando referred to ...
I didn't realized Ven. Dhammanando is offline this vassa.

Thanks. Your answer clears up some and brings up more questions. I need time to think and formulate the questions and will asked more later.
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Gwi II
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Re: Ceto-Vimutti

Post by Gwi II »

Watana wrote: Mon Jul 19, 2021 12:56 am Why is that term often translated in convoluted ways ? Isn't it just "mental liberation" or "will-liberation" ?
Ceto: marrow aka brain aka mind
(Indonesian: "benak" [aka mind])

"Ceto" is (position) on the forehead.
When we memorize a lesson, we
have to remember it in our minds
(marrow, brain).
Gwi: "There are only-two Sakaṽādins:
Theraṽādå&Ṽibhajjaṽādå, the rest are
nonsakaṽādins!"
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