Ceto-Vimutti

[Watana]

Why is that term often translated in convoluted ways ? Isn't it just "mental liberation" or "will-liberation" ?

[DooDoot]

How is it often translated in convoluted ways ?

[Sam Vara]

How is it often translated in convoluted ways ?

"Deliverance of the heart" is a common one. Maybe that's one example.

[DooDoot]

"Deliverance of the heart" is a common one. Maybe that's one example.

I suppose there is the bizarre 'awareness-release'.

[DooDoot]

Why is that term often translated in convoluted ways ? Isn't it just "mental liberation" or "will-liberation" ?

Hello. I may be useful if a benevolent Pali guru could explain what type of compound Ceto-Vimutti is, namely:

1. Is 'ceto' an adjective, therefore the translation is 'mental liberation'?

2. Or is 'ceto' a noun, therefore the translation is 'liberation of mind'?

[Watana]

Yeah Bhikkhu Bodhi wrongly translated on purpose Ceto-Vimutti as "Deliverance of the heart" because the sect to which he pertains doesn't view the 4 immeasurables as leading to nibbāna, even though the Buddha explicitly stated countless times that they directly lead to it.

[DooDoot]

"Deliverance of the heart" is a common one. Maybe that's one example.

For what reasons do u regard the above as "convoluted"? Thanks

[Sam Vara]

"Deliverance of the heart" is a common one. Maybe that's one example.

For what reasons do u regard the above as "convoluted"? Thanks

Just because it uses less common words. "Deliverance" makes me think of duelling banjos or Amazon packages. I don't personally have a problem with it, I just thought it might be the sort of thing the OP was meaning.

[Sam Vara]

Why is that term often translated in convoluted ways ? Isn't it just "mental liberation" or "will-liberation" ?

Hello. I may be useful if a benevolent Pali guru could explain what type of compound Ceto-Vimutti is, namely:

1. Is 'ceto' an adjective, therefore the translation is 'mental liberation'?

2. Or is 'ceto' a noun, therefore the translation is 'liberation of mind'?

The latter, I think. There is also paññāvimutti. They are normally translated as "liberation of... Also, if it were merely adjectival it would go on to say what it is liberation of, or from.

[Watana]

I'm no expert on Paali, but since it's "ceto" and not "citta" I'd assume that's it's an adjective, not a noun.

[Sam Vara]

I'm no expert on Paali, but since it's "ceto" and not "citta" I'd assume that's it's an adjective, not a noun.

Nor am I, but I believe that ceto is the form citta takes in compounds, as we see in cetosamphassa, cetopadosa, etc.

[suni.anu]

I'm no expert on Paali, but since it's "ceto" and not "citta" I'd assume that's it's an adjective, not a noun.

Respected Sir,

In my Pāli course, we had this word and its definitely a noun, Masc. Noun and ‘Ceto’ is a declined form of the noun 'Cetasa'. It could be either Nominative case, Accusative case or Vocative case of declension, all of which are 'Ceto'. Pl. refer to this website http://www.buddha-vacana.org/toolbox/noundec.html. You can use the find feature (Ctrl + F) and type 'ceto' to easily navigate to the right section of the webpage, as it’s a huge page.

Now in the applied sense it’s meaning could be either ‘thoughts’ or ‘mind’ depending on the situation.

In the case of ‘Cetovimutti’, it means ‘liberation of the mind’. From what? From ‘thoughts’ and from the ‘5 mental hindrances (pañca-nīvaraṇa) of sensual desires (kāmacchanda), ill-will (vyāpāda), sloth and torpor (thīna-middha), restlessness and anxiety (uddhacca-kukkucca) and skeptical doubts (vicikicca).

For Removal of (distracting thoughts) during concentration (samādhi), pl. refer to (Vitakkasaṇṭṭhāna Sutta) MN 20.

This liberated state (cetovimutti) is achieved through the 8 stages of concentration (samādhi) viz. the 4 form jhāna and the 4 formless jhāna. As you progress from the 1st stage to the 8th stage, each of the mental hindrances are eradicated as under : Wallace 2006 pp. 158-159.
1. vitakka ("applied thought) counteracts sloth-torpor (lethargy and drowsiness)
2. vicāra ("sustained thought) counteracts doubt (uncertainty)
3. pīti (rapture) counteracts ill-will (malice)
4. sukha (non-sensual pleasure) counteracts restlessness-worry (excitation and anxiety)
5. ekaggatā (one-pointedness) counteracts sensory desire

For detailed explanation, pl refer to “The Five Mental Hindrances and Their Conquest” by Ven. Nyanaponika Thera at https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... el026.html

Hope this helps a bit…..

[Dhammanando]

2. Or is 'ceto' a noun, therefore the translation is 'liberation of mind'?

It's a noun and the compound is traditionally treated as either an instrumental or a genitive tappurisa.

Instrumental

"Deliverance [from defilements] by [the training of] the thought-process."

Genitive

"Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."

[DooDoot]

Instrumental

"Deliverance [from defilements] by [the training of] the thought-process."

Genitive

"Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."

Thank you Venerable. Why do u translate 'ceto' as 'thought-process'? Is not the luminous mind (citta) or a luminous consciousness (vinnana) also liberation?

[DooDoot]

"Deliverance of the thought-process [from defilements]."

Venerable. I suppose my previous current question to you is based on the common view that 'liberation' is often viewed as liberation from the thought-process.

How would you compare the term 'cetovimutti' (say found in MN 29/30 or MN 43) to the term 'vimocayaṁ cittaṁ' found in MN 118?

Also, it appears MN 43 refers to five types of 'cetovimutti', namely, via the 4th jhana, metta, nothingness, signless & emptiness.

Thank you